SC Newmad

[grinch]

Banshee Darkside. Black on black. 165 or 180. Depending on fork(s) 63-65.5.26/27.5. A lil portly but ohh those sub 17 CS's

[raisingarizona13]

RaisingArizona, what about something like the specialized enduro evo? That will probably be in production for a while, coil front and back and 1 x11. You could get around better than most older bikes like the demo 7 on that and thrash it pretty good too.

That's the one I have been looking at but I won't be in the market for a few years. I just hope it is popular enough that production of that bike or something comparable continues until then. That bike looks so sick.

[toast2266]

Obviously for any pure DH that's prone to clapping out DH bikes, a trail bike will suffer. But there's also something valuable in learning to make a "less capable" bike survive happily in beat-you-up terrain. Whenever you work or play with a tool or machine, it's a good idea to think of that tool's/machine's longevity and build your work or play in a way that works with the tool/machine, rather than against it.

It seems like the problem is that the newer enduro machines are more capable than they are durable, but that the lack of durability isn't immediately self evident. So I agree with you, but I think the problem is that historically it was a bit more obvious when a bike couldn't take the abuse - there weren't many bikes that had mini-dh bike handling and descending capabilities, but with xc-ish durability. Now that's pretty much par for the course.

[raisingarizona13]

It seems like the problem is that the newer enduro machines are more capable than they are durable, but that the lack of durability isn't immediately self evident. So I agree with you, but I think the problem is that historically it was a bit more obvious when a bike couldn't take the abuse - there weren't many bikes that had mini-dh bike handling and descending capabilities, but with xc-ish durability. Now that's pretty much par for the course.

This is exactly what I have been thinking about. I don't ride my xc bike or even my Turner highline the way I would ride a true dh race bike on really rough steep trails but I am going to try to push the limits of any bike and the limits of these enduro bikes is outmatching the durability. Or at least that's my feeling for now. With the price tags they have I'm having a hard time justifying a purchase.

[creaky fossil]

That's our trade-off. Now you can get 6+6 at somewhere between 25 and 30 lbs. For probably most riders (everyone but those who don't learn as quickly as the rarities who seem they were born to ride a bike), learning confidence happens by doing things with more balls than skill. Impatience rules. You can't be impatient and bash through with a bike that was designed uberlight. Huck bikes let you bash though shit, but they had grasshopper dynamics, were heavy, and pedaled uphill like shit.

The geometry, handling, suspension and braking quality on a 2014my 27 lb 6+6 is far superior for descending steep + technical than a 2003 huck bike with 8 or 7 at both ends, but the durability isn't there. So riders have to improve their skills if they want their bikes to survive. Or they can just beat 'em up and throw 'em away, if they have the $$$.

RaisingArizona, what do you mean you are trying to "push the limits of" any bike you ride? Why would you aim in that direction?

[WaistDeepGroomers]

It seems like the problem is that the newer enduro machines are more capable than they are durable, but that the lack of durability isn't immediately self evident. So I agree with you, but I think the problem is that historically it was a bit more obvious when a bike couldn't take the abuse - there weren't many bikes that had mini-dh bike handling and descending capabilities, but with xc-ish durability. Now that's pretty much par for the course.

For folks that have been banging up 6 & 6 bikes for a few years, what has tended to need replacing first? Beat up my Trek Fuel for a few seasons but didn't end up needing to replace much beyond the chain... thankfully the guy I'd bought it off of had thrown on some burlier rims and a few other things to turn it into a dual slalom rig (although I don't know how that bike would do well at that with its geometry and QR fork..). Looking at the used alu slayer I just bought and wondering what might go first... luckily it seems there's plenty of cheap heavy 26er wheels to go around these days but I'd be really surprised given the kind of riding I've done if I started breaking shit on this bike.

[kidwoo]

For folks that have been banging up 6 & 6 bikes for a few years, what has tended to need replacing first?

If they're using it as a trail bike, nothing.

What toast is saying is that even though trail bikes are getting close to the travel and geo of the 7" freeride bikes, the frames and the components they're being built with put them well below a legitimate replacement for those bikes.

I've taken lots of chances on the 7" freeride variety that would have crumpled a 28lb trail bike with the same travel and angles. That's all he was saying.

[raisingarizona13]

That's our trade-off. Now you can get 6+6 at somewhere between 25 and 30 lbs. For probably most riders (everyone but those who don't learn as quickly as the rarities who seem they were born to ride a bike), learning confidence happens by doing things with more balls than skill. Impatience rules. You can't be impatient and bash through with a bike that was designed uberlight. Huck bikes let you bash though shit, but they had grasshopper dynamics, were heavy, and pedaled uphill like shit.

The geometry, handling, suspension and braking quality on a 2014my 27 lb 6+6 is far superior for descending steep + technical than a 2003 huck bike with 8 or 7 at both ends, but the durability isn't there. So riders have to improve their skills if they want their bikes to survive. Or they can just beat 'em up and throw 'em away, if they have the $$$.

RaisingArizona, what do you mean you are trying to "push the limits of" any bike you ride? Why would you aim in that direction?

I road dh race bikes for almost ten years. Before that I rode xc bikes and I even raced a little back in Jackson Hole late 90's. I have been riding mountain bikes for 28 years. Now I have gotten back into pedal riding but I love the steep and tech riding. If you have some experience you will ride any bike to it's, or close to it's limits. Isn't that what a lot of us do? I can tone it down and ride a bike the way it feels appropriate but I like to get after it and I can feel that my little bike is not going to hold up to my style of riding. Most pro level dh racers don't just drag their dh bikes through shit, they ride with finesse too ya know but it's at a harder and faster rate than the average.

[raisingarizona13]

If they're using it as a trail bike, nothing.

What toast is saying is that even though trail bikes are getting close to the travel and geo of the 7" freeride bikes, the frames and the components they're being built with put them well below a legitimate replacement for those bikes.

I've taken lots of chances on the 7" freeride variety that would have crumpled a 28lb trail bike with the same travel and angles. That's all he was saying.

Shit, the geo is even better than a lot of the older 7 inch bikes. The new crop of enduro bikes feel really fast, especially for someone with a lot of dh riding experience.

[raisingarizona13]

For folks that have been banging up 6 & 6 bikes for a few years, what has tended to need replacing first? Beat up my Trek Fuel for a few seasons but didn't end up needing to replace much beyond the chain... thankfully the guy I'd bought it off of had thrown on some burlier rims and a few other things to turn it into a dual slalom rig (although I don't know how that bike would do well at that with its geometry and QR fork..). Looking at the used alu slayer I just bought and wondering what might go first... luckily it seems there's plenty of cheap heavy 26er wheels to go around these days but I'd be really surprised given the kind of riding I've done if I started breaking shit on this bike.

Wheels and suspension parts would be the first that come to mind for me.

[kidwoo]

Shit, the geo is even better than a lot of the older 7 inch bikes. The new crop of enduro bikes feel really fast, especially for someone with a lot of dh riding experience.

Oh for sure. Trail bikes are finally becoming what they should have been all along for people who live in fast rough terrain.

But I've ridden a lot of the old rampage zone (just using that because people know it) on some of my old 7" bikes.

There's no way in hell I'd do some of those lines on a freakin nomad. I'm sure someone would with some good wheels and tires, but I'm definitely not one of them. They're not a replacement. Hitting a smooth double in the woods isn't what I'm talking about. That stuff works on hardtails. There's a safety and stability that comes from stiff, stout frames that have enough meat on them to track a line in crappy dirt and rough runouts. No 5-6lb frame is going to have that.

There's a reason that 4" slopestyle frames and even dirtjump hardtails tend to weigh more than 6-7" trailbike frames. Flexy, chattery frames can hurt people.

I guess the genre I'm thinking of is just 'dh bikes with less travel, maybe a steeper head angle'. But construction-wise, every bit a dh bike.

[toast2266]

For folks that have been banging up 6 & 6 bikes for a few years, what has tended to need replacing first? Beat up my Trek Fuel for a few seasons but didn't end up needing to replace much beyond the chain... thankfully the guy I'd bought it off of had thrown on some burlier rims and a few other things to turn it into a dual slalom rig (although I don't know how that bike would do well at that with its geometry and QR fork..). Looking at the used alu slayer I just bought and wondering what might go first... luckily it seems there's plenty of cheap heavy 26er wheels to go around these days but I'd be really surprised given the kind of riding I've done if I started breaking shit on this bike.

Woo's spot on with this. Like he said, hitting the stuff at the old rampage site on an "enduro" bike would pretty quickly result in broken linkage, folded wheels, etc. But just by the geometry and travel numbers, a 6x6 slack-ish bike would be fine in a lot of that terrain.

For me, I have a DH bike for attempting to do stupid stuff so I don't thrash my trail bike as hard as I probably would if I was trying to make one bike be both a trail bike and a mini-dh bike. I don't act like my 6x6 bike is a dh bike, and for the most part it holds up to normal trail abuse alright. But if I really start riding the trail bike hard, it definitely becomes apparent that it's not built like a dh bike; it's flexier, and pretty much every part of it starts to feel like it's being pushed beyond it's intended operating threshold.

[Lindahl]

My point was... for the trails and stuff he's talking about, a bike like the Nomad would be fine and give you that DH bike feel. Sure, you may want a burly wheelset (what I run on mine), but that has nothing to do with the bike frame itself. The geo and stiffness is just fine. I can get by with a Lyrik, but you could easily put a Totem or similar on it. He's not hitting the old rampage site (yeah, big shit needs a big bike... duh), he's hitting some rough local shuttle trails and some midsize jumps and drops. A bike like the Nomad does just fine with that in my experience. Hell, its a lot better than some of the older stuff he used to use, I'm sure of that.

RA, I think most of your problem seems to be perception... some (not all) of the 6x6 bikes can handle a ton of abuse. Like I said earlier, the new carbon Nomads are stronger and stiffer than the old V10 alums.

But yeah, many stock bikes are not built for the abuse. Buy a used frame and put together what you really want. With 26" on the out, everything used is pretty damn cheap right now, and most people with these parts and bikes have barely even rode them - certainly not in the way you intend to do.

Slap the new Deore groupset on there in a 1x10 for under 200, grab a used coil fork and shock for 400/300, a used frame for 900-1500, a nearly new burly wheelset and some rubber and go have fun. Lots of DHers are gonna be going 27.5 soon, so you should be able to find some sweet wheelsets for cheap soon. The trick will be to find 142x12 or 135x9 rear.

[toast2266]

I also think a lot of what passes for "freeride" these days is easier on equipment than it used to be. In the early 00's, there was an awful lot of hucking to flat and wrestling a bike down awkward messes of rock. Trails have evolved since then, and at least the stuff around here is much smoother. Not to say it's not rocky / rooty with some burly options, but there's less bludgeoning of the bike and body in the name of getting rad.

[raisingarizona13]

My point was... for the trails and stuff he's talking about, a bike like the Nomad would be fine. Sure, you may want a burly wheelset (what I run on mine), but that has nothing to do with the bike frame itself. The geo and stiffness is just fine. I can get by with a Lyrik, but you could easily put a Totem or similar on it. He's not hitting the old rampage site (yeah, big shit needs a big bike... duh), he's hitting some rough local shuttle trails and some midsize jumps and drops. A bike like the Nomad does just fine with that in my experience. Hell, its a lot better than some of the older stuff he used to use, I'm sure of that.

RA, I think most of your problem seems to be perception... some of the 6x6 bikes can handle a ton of abuse (not all, of course). Like I said earlier, the new carbon Nomads are stronger and stiffer than the old V10 alums.

Our shuttle trails aren't just a little rough, I have seen a lot of pro riders come through and say that it's some of the gnarliest shit they have ridden. Sure you can get by on a Nomad and maybe this new model is better but I don't think it would be nearly as much fun. But you may be right, maybe I just need to try out more bikes. I guess that is why I have been asking this question.

If you ever come through give me a shout. I'd like to see how the Nomad does on Private reserve and I don't mean that in a challenging sort of way. Please don't read it like that.

[markcjr]

My point was... for the trails and stuff he's talking about, a bike like the Nomad would be fine and give you that DH bike feel. Sure, you may want a burly wheelset (what I run on mine), but that has nothing to do with the bike frame itself. The geo and stiffness is just fine. I can get by with a Lyrik, but you could easily put a Totem or similar on it. He's not hitting the old rampage site (yeah, big shit needs a big bike... duh), he's hitting some rough local shuttle trails and some midsize jumps and drops. A bike like the Nomad does just fine with that in my experience. Hell, its a lot better than some of the older stuff he used to use, I'm sure of that.

RA, I think most of your problem seems to be perception... some (not all) of the 6x6 bikes can handle a ton of abuse. Like I said earlier, the new carbon Nomads are stronger and stiffer than the old V10 alums.

But yeah, many stock bikes are not built for the abuse. Buy a used frame and put together what you really want. With 26" on the out, everything used is pretty damn cheap right now, and most people with these parts and bikes have barely even rode them - certainly not in the way you intend to do.

Slap the new Deore groupset on there in a 1x10 for under 200, grab a used coil fork and shock for 400/300, a used frame for 900-1500, a nearly new burly wheelset and some rubber and go have fun. Lots of DHers are gonna be going 27.5 soon, so you should be able to find some sweet wheelsets for cheap soon. The trick will be to find 142x12 or 135x9 rear.

I don't know. I have a 2012 carbon enduro with a 13' crossmax sx wheelset and a fox 36 rc2 up front (66* ha), and I rode some chundery downhill the other day and it didn't feel anywhere near as solid as my 2004 yeti asx or 2006 bulllit with a 888 up front. Sure, it's great for smooth jumps and flowy trails, but on extended chunder a 29-30lb bike just tosses my 200lb ass around, but that's just me. Ideally I'd have a 5-6" trail bike and a 7-8" mini dh/dh bike. But, I just blew all my money on a intense t27.5 so I'm going to have to make that work for everything. I'll report back in a week or so, seeing as it's almost identical to the newmad........just more INTENSE

[kidwoo]

I also think a lot of what passes for "freeride" these days is easier on equipment than it used to be.

I'm still really bummed I sold my teeter totter bike.

It had a kickstand for totters that were slow to drop.

[bsavery]

Wheels and suspension parts would be the first that come to mind for me.

This. Especially suspension bearings... depending on the suspension design

[raisingarizona13]

I'm still really bummed I sold my teeter totter bike.

It had a kickstand for totters that were slow to drop.

Well Gary really appreciates the purchase.

http://www.spearshoes.com/gilligan.html

[kidwoo]

Dude you pulled that site up in like three seconds.

Why is that in your bookmarks?

[raisingarizona13]

Dude you pulled that site up in like three seconds.

Why is that in your bookmarks?

I sort of have a thing for clowns. I know, I know. It's a bit creepy. You should see the look my fiance gives me when I try to play dress up sexy time.

[kidwoo]

dear lindhal: do not call RaisingArizona if you're in the area

[Lindahl]

Why? That stuff looks fun as hell

[raisingarizona13]

Why? That stuff looks fun as hell

You like clowns too? Awesome, I thought I was alone. I will even let you wear my favorite pair of shoes!

[funkendrenchman]

It is amazing how many bike companies have a multiple top end bikes in the 8k to 10K range.

I was contemplating a new bike this year, but might just wait and buy something used end of season or in spring for 1/2 the amount they cost new.

Even tougher to find a 6" aluminum 26er...

Yeti SB-66 definitely fits, but their bearings explode during shipping.