2011/12 buy an Avy Airbag? discussion thread

[marshalolson]

roger - i am not trying to give you shit, just really curious more than anything. i think you should use whatever gear you are comfortable with.

my point in all of this is that the point of owning a good beacon is to increase the speed and decrease the time it takes to locate someone involved in a slide. the point of a probe is to decrease the time it takes to find someone, since you won't have to dig out as big of an area to locate them. the point of a good shovel and associated technique is to decrease the time it takes to dig out and hopefully rescue someone.

so my question is how does an airbag - who's whole point is to decrease the time it takes to locate someone (i.e. you can see the giant bright bag from a mile away), and decreases the depth of burial, thereby making rescue faster - NOT compliment the goals of a beacon/shovel/probe?

i, personally, see the airbag as being a critical component to the package of beacon/shovel/probe. maybe just a difference of opinion, which is fine. i guess i just don't understand when you say "its just a security blanket". i see it is a tool that will speed recovery, which is exactly what a beacon/shovel/probe are.

[neck beard]

so my question is how does an airbag - who's whole point is to decrease the time it takes to locate someone (i.e. you can see the giant bright bag from a mile away), and decreases the depth of burial, thereby making rescue faster - NOT compliment the goals of a beacon/shovel/probe?

Totally right.

But there will be a lot of Mung Beans on ptex out there who will probably think an airbag is a path to safety and reason to neglect the basics of snow conditions + terrain characteristics. Of course that does not make it any less of a great tool in the kit and this tech will be greatly appreciated by those who use it properly. Nothing negates knowledge and humility.

When I was 17 I knew the risks of pregnancy, but we also knew that the morning after pill would sort it out. A crude comparison, but perhaps a similar problem in the context of irresponsible buzz-addicted heat of the moment weaklings (like I was). Damn I miss being 17, she was hot.

When the stars line up, I'll get one.

[marshalolson]

But there will be a lot of Mung Beans on ptex out there who will probably think an airbag is a path to safety and reason to neglect the basics of snow conditions + terrain characteristics.

those folks will make terrible choices and put others in danger regardless if they have a pack or not. might as well help minimize the effort SAR/you/me need to put in to dig them out, no? and increase the chance that when we do dig them out, they are alive, and not a corpse...?

this sort of gets back to the seat-belt discussion. folks will drive like assholes because they are assholes, not because they have a seatbelt on. if you take the self belt away, they are still assholes driving like it.

[PNWbrit]

But there will be a lot of Mung Beans on ptex out there who will probably think an airbag is a path to safety and reason to neglect the basics of snow conditions + terrain characteristics.

Not sure that it'll be a significant number given the price of these things we are not talking "Don't worry brah I got RECCO in my pants" here.

[Buster Highmen]

Dumb people are pretty insistent on staying dumb.

Despite my personal inclinations, is there an airbag summary page?

[Buster Highmen]

"Don't worry brah I got RECCO in my pants" here.

[PNWbrit]

Despite my personal inclinations, is there an airbag summary page?

Lots o stuff here

[covert]

beacon/probe/shovel are all designed to work together to aid in rescue/recovery. you don't buy one without the others. airbags are extras.

i think the beacon/probe part is an extra, like an airbag. a shovel has great utility without a beacon/probe and i often carry one even when i decline a beacon and probe.

you are the bottom layer of protection. you can add a partner or a shovel or a beacon or an airbag. they're all just additional layers of safety.

everybody has a different layering system. choosing to wear an airbag is not much different from choosing to wear a beacon or carry a shovel or ski with a partner.

[honus]

*Yawn*

Are you trying to make this into a musical? I'm getting a West Side Story vibe.

[skifishbum]

when your a roj your a thread cunter
every day
from your first post till your last diein day

[Scotsman50]

Good review on Wildsnow of BCA Float today.
http://www.wildsnow.com/6147/bca-float36-18-revie/

I still like the snowpulse/mammut as I think the air bag configuration gives better head trauma protection and will create a better airspace when it deflates if you were buried.

[goldenboy]

I'd like to be right about conditions at least 99.9% of the time, but when that .1% happens, I would really like to have a cord to pull. Without a bag, there's a good chance that even a very competent partner will take 15 minutes or more to find me and dig me out if I'm 3 or 4 feet under. Good chance I'm dead. With the bag, there's a significantly better chance I'm barely buried and the bag is visible and my partner gets me out in well under 5 minutes and I'm alive. Still doesn't mean I want to take a ride, nor do I think I'll approach anything differently (but I can see how one might).

Still don't have one- mostly because I'm expecting the bags to continue improving by leaps and bounds in terms of features, weight, ease of travel/refill, and price. The best packs this year are likely to suck in comparison to the bags in a couple of years, especially as other players get in the market (I'm assuming BD, Dakine, etc are working on packs of their own). Kind of hard to make a big purchase knowing you'll likely sell it in a couple of years for next to nothing to buy something better. Even so, I'm leaning towards getting one this year anyway.

[PNWbrit]

I'm assuming BD, Dakine, etc are working on packs of their own

I really wish BD would do one.... good chance they'd just nail it IMHO.

[Scotsman50]

^^^^^^ yeah ..I thought about that before I bought my snowpulse ! There are newer models coming out and I think you are right about huge leaps in weight etc but probably not a huge leap over those that have been recently brought to market( manufactures presumably will take some more time to greatly enhance their current products) in the next two seasons IMHO.

IF you're charging hard in the BC..... do you really want to wait another two seasons???? Never know when the laws of probability will kick in?
Just my opinion, but it comes down to how much time you spend in the BC and what lines you are skiing. If you are 50 day plus, skiing big lines= no brainer..don''t wait.

[CookieMonster]

I'm curious, although this is a tiny bit off topic.

Not including ski cuts, I trigger something every year, usually it's ~ Size 1 or maybe 1.5, but it's something nonetheless. How many of the participants here haven't ever triggered an avalanche? It seems statistically impossible to ski for more than a few seasons and not set anything loose.

Is there a distinction being drawn between triggering an avalanche and being caught?

[Scotsman50]

I'm curious, although this is a tiny bit off topic.

Not including ski cuts, I trigger something every year, usually it's ~ Size 1 or maybe 1.5, but it's something nonetheless. How many of the participants here haven't ever triggered an avalanche? It seems statistically impossible to ski for more than a few seasons and not set anything loose.

Is there a distinction being drawn between triggering an avalanche and being caught?

Excellent question Cookie and I think germane to the discussion. Last season I triggered probably 2-3 class 1's to 1.25's and got got swept off my feet and carried a meaningful distance at least twice although by very small slides were burial was not likely. I think people do discount triggering and being caught.

[skifishbum]

i was disapointed skicut deminstrations were not part of the avvy 2 class
One of the best feelings and well somedays its all about bed surfaces and learnin perhaps a low angle face shot or two.
EVERY DAYS BOUT BRING EVERYONE BACK TO THE THE TRAIL HEAD OR FINAL DESTINATION

[b dubya]

Good review on Wildsnow of BCA Float today.
http://www.wildsnow.com/6147/bca-float36-18-revie/

Dual ice tool holders are provided, just beware of deploying the airbag when you've got a mountaineering axe point sticking up. That's a 60 cm axe, so I'd probably only be comfortable with shorter, technical ice tools on there.

Anyone have any ideas/solutions to the above problem? The Float 36 looks pretty sweet though.

[Meadow Skipper]

Anyone have any ideas/solutions to the above problem?

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com...pike-protector

[b dubya]

hmmm. I'm not convinced. thx tho

[icelanticskier]

roger - i am not trying to give you shit, just really curious more than anything. i think you should use whatever gear you are comfortable with.

my point in all of this is that the point of owning a good beacon is to increase the speed and decrease the time it takes to locate someone involved in a slide. the point of a probe is to decrease the time it takes to find someone, since you won't have to dig out as big of an area to locate them. the point of a good shovel and associated technique is to decrease the time it takes to dig out and hopefully rescue someone.

so my question is how does an airbag - who's whole point is to decrease the time it takes to locate someone (i.e. you can see the giant bright bag from a mile away), and decreases the depth of burial, thereby making rescue faster - NOT compliment the goals of a beacon/shovel/probe?

i, personally, see the airbag as being a critical component to the package of beacon/shovel/probe. maybe just a difference of opinion, which is fine. i guess i just don't understand when you say "its just a security blanket". i see it is a tool that will speed recovery, which is exactly what a beacon/shovel/probe are.

i hear ya on all that^^^^^^. maybe "security blanket" wasn't the right choice of words.

i just see the bag as a way for some folks to push that envelope further than they would without one. data may not support my thinking on this, but time will tell. the bag has proven to keep folks on top, but i just wonder what amount of maybe negative residual effects the bags may produce. for example, they may draw more folks without a good overall knowledge or respect for the terrain in areas on higher risk days that maybe they'd stay out of without the bag.

like one time i was on a tour in utah and saw a group of folks crossing a very exposed slope on a fairly scary day their mouths full of avylungs. they made it across without incident. i ran into the group a bit later and asked them about the crossing and they said they wouldn't have had crossed it without the lung. would the lung have saved them from trauma too?

i know the avylung is off topic, but it and the bag represents, for me, an avenue for many less mindful or experienced folks to push unnecessary limits in the mountains in a different way than the beacon/probe/shovel.

i know my thinking has no data to support it and the airbag data is pretty convincing. i'm just curious as to what increases we may see in avy related accidents as more bags are being carried out there, and how any injuries/deaths occur as a result.

rog

[AltaPowderDaze]

The way i see it is that any tool you can add to improve your chances of chances of survival is a good tool to have.


with regard to overconfidence:
that is an issue that extends well beyond this application and can be found everywhere in life. you can't police everyone, so focus on yourself and maybe those in your party. personally, when i find myself double checking my safety gear (ie avalung) i find it to be a great time to check my situational awareness. does my perception match the reality around me? often when i stop and rethink the situation i'll find something that i missed that either lead me to make a mistake or almost make one.


to address the trauma issue:
if you're in an area where you feel trees may cause trauma when using the bag, then don't pull the trigger there. or better yet, realize the level of risk you're about to take is above what you're willing to accept in the end. no matter if you're in the snow or on the surface the obstacles will do damage.

every tool has its appropriate application. most probably wouldn't use a hammer and nails to try and bond two pieces of metal but they work well on wood. it doesn't mean the hammer has no use in a welding shop.

[auvgeek]

to address the trauma issue:
if you're in an area where you feel trees may cause trauma when using the bag, then don't pull the trigger there. or better yet, realize the level of risk you're about to take is above what you're willing to accept in the end. no matter if you're in the snow or on the surface the obstacles will do damage.

As I understand it, most here are not arguing about the merits of the avy bag in general. The thread is primarily about why YOU are or are not purchasing an avy airbag pack this year. I think it's appropriate for people to make the argument that they don't think the cost of airbag is worth it for them because they mainly ski trees, where an airbag is unlikely to provide much protection. This is different than saying an airbag is a less safe because you may slide farther and run into trees (which is debatable anyway).

BTW, I think Lee's short post is worth more than rest of the thread combined.

[icelanticskier]

I'm curious, although this is a tiny bit off topic.

Not including ski cuts, I trigger something every year, usually it's ~ Size 1 or maybe 1.5, but it's something nonetheless. How many of the participants here haven't ever triggered an avalanche? It seems statistically impossible to ski for more than a few seasons and not set anything loose.

Is there a distinction being drawn between triggering an avalanche and being caught?

not including ski cuts, i'd have to say other than maybe a couple/few unexpected tiny pulled out pockets over the last 20 years, my big ride last march was the only one.

many, many, many notable small-large ski cuts tho. good question.

rog

[brutah]

i hear ya on all that^^^^^^. maybe "security blanket" wasn't the right choice of words.

i just see the bag as a way for some folks to push that envelope further than they would without one. data may not support my thinking on this, but time will tell. the bag has proven to keep folks on top, but i just wonder what amount of maybe negative residual effects the bags may produce. for example, they may draw more folks without a good overall knowledge or respect for the terrain in areas on higher risk days that maybe they'd stay out of without the bag.

like one time i was on a tour in utah and saw a group of folks crossing a very exposed slope on a fairly scary day their mouths full of avylungs. they made it across without incident. i ran into the group a bit later and asked them about the crossing and they said they wouldn't have had crossed it without the lung. would the lung have saved them from trauma too?

i know the avylung is off topic, but it and the bag represents, for me, an avenue for many less mindful or experienced folks to push unnecessary limits in the mountains in a different way than the beacon/probe/shovel.

i know my thinking has no data to support it and the airbag data is pretty convincing. i'm just curious as to what increases we may see in avy related accidents as more bags are being carried out there, and how any injuries/deaths occur as a result.

rog

wow, I'm actually in somewhat agreement with roj on this one..... and this point was brought up at the Utah Snow and Avalanche Workshop this past weekend.

The point that was raised was that people might be more inclined to buy an airbag pack INSTEAD of a beacon because the statistics show overwhelming evidence that airbags will keep you on top of the snow, whereas, a beacon just allows your partner the opportunity to locate you under the snow. If you're the general public, it seems much more logical to buy the airbag than buy the beacon because the beacon has much more devastating human error results than the airbag.

just a thought