2011/12 buy an Avy Airbag? discussion thread

[marshalolson]

I think that the euro stats probably don't transfer over here completely because the typical terrain there is ideal for airbag usage.

agree, there are plenty of caveats, but my reading of it is still:

1. a user is going to ride higher in a slide with an airbag than without.
2. that is inherently safer no matter what the terrain

even if the mortality rate is 1.5x or 2.5x or whatever in the woods vs. high alpine euro data... whatever. i'll take it. its certainly better than 10x without. that said, there is no data to actually SHOW the mortality rate in the US would be higher... (edit to add based on TheDon's comments below, and a little thought, the mortality rate in US could actually be LOWER with an airbag, when compared to Euro, since you are less likely to be swept up terminal cliffs etc like in euro, and you are less likely to be sent head first into trees).



rog- you might want to take a sawzall to your car's dash to pull the airbags and gardenening shears to clip all the seat belts to make sure you are not driving recklessly. oh, and be sure to disable 911 on your cell phone, cut the ABS on your brakes while you are at it, and make sure anytime you are skiing with friends to demand they leave their shovel and probe in the car, otherwise that layer of security that you might feel would FORCE you into making a bad decision. thanks.




the absolute MOST important thing a backcountry travel can POSSIBLY learn is that they are NEVER 100% in control of the mountain.

[TheDon]

It depends on where you ski too.

Cause of Death in Avalanche Fatalities This study delves into the cause of death in avey's some weight is given to trauma but more to asphyxiation.

Conclusion: Most avalanche deaths in Utah result from asphyxia. Therefore, most victims are alive in the postavalanche period and have the potential for live recovery. Rescue strategies that employ rapid recovery as well as techniques that prolong survival while buried provide the best means of improving outcome.

Most in Utar are from total burials so if I can improve my odds of not going under I'm in.

I'm with Marshal and others here.

[TheDon]

Oh you've got to see this too while we are on the topic, I think I saw it in another thread but it is good.

[sfotex]

It depends on where you ski too.

Most in Utar are from total burials so if I can improve my odds of not going under I'm in.

I'm with Marshal and others here.

Well, that's what I was looking for. Trigger pulled on a black jack....

[auvgeek]

[...] the mystery ranch option seemed like a single pack that is a good option for hut trips and most of my day trips and the price point is low enough to jump in. Fact that system is removable and the pack becomes a really nice mid volume pack suitable for other seasons is certainly another consideration.

The weight of the Blackjack sans airbag system is still almost 2x that of my 40L climbing pack. Not sure I'll find another use for the pack itself, but it looks like a damn functional ski pack. I don't mind a worse carry system when hiking, though. Marshal (or anyone else who can comment) do you find the Fuze worth using for any purpose other than skiing? My brother has it, and I'm pretty sure he puts it in his storage unit at the end of ski season.

[AltaPowderDaze]

i didn't have time to read all the threads but have had some experience with bags over the last two seasons (ABS, BCA and Snowpulse). I prefer one that has a mechanical trigger and is user serviceable. BCA and snowpulse both fit the bill. out of those, the snow pulse would be my choice for mostly personal preference. it can be refilled locally and that gives you the ability to "practice" with your new equipment at a cost effective rate. the trigger is mechanical, stays in place and requires no primer charge to set off the bag.

A note on ABS: they do have some great tech going into the remote trigger that would be nice for guided situations or possibly touring parties. I don't know of anyone else that currently does this. we'll be getting a few of the updated packs this season to test and hope that the upgrades are spot on.

I'd like to try the mystery ranch pack and see what BD comes up with in the future.

[telelebowski]

I got the Float 18 this year... my only hold up is gonna be WHEN to pull the cord? I've thought back on all of my runs in the BC and tried to picture when I would have actually pulled the cord. It's actually tough to pick out when would have been the times to use it. Is it as soon as you see something fracture? As soon as you determine you can't get out of the way? As soon as you determine it's large enough to bury you?

I have done a lot of ski cuts in my time, seen quite a few fractures in various manners, and once, by lining up all the links in the error chain, been caught in a pretty large avalanche. When it happens you will 100% know when to pull the cord. It crosses the line from, "hey, this is a lot of movement, I need to get to that safe zone" to "this is serious" in a nanosecond.

[icelanticskier]

rog- you might want to take a sawzall to your car's dash to pull the airbags and gardenening shears to clip all the seat belts to make sure you are not driving recklessly. oh, and be sure to disable 911 on your cell phone, cut the ABS on your brakes while you are at it, and make sure anytime you are skiing with friends to demand they leave their shovel and probe in the car, otherwise that layer of security that you might feel would FORCE you into making a bad decision. thanks.

you asked for input from folks and input was given. now your being a completely idiot cuz i don't see things as you see them. typical. my logic goes in a different direction than some. so shoot me.

marshal, you just don't get it. and that's ok.

over and out.

rog

[marshalolson]

is your argument that safety gear should not EXIST because people will be more aggressive with it than without, or that you, personally, don't use much safety gear, and would not buy an airbag to keep your own aggression in check? perhaps i am miss-understanding you, but what i am reading of your comments in this thread indicate the former, rather than the latter.

your other argument, that seems to state that you think that you are absolutely in control of all factors in the mountains all of the time, is well... your choice.

i, however, do think that everyone buying an airbag understands there is a likelihood of getting paralyzed or ripping their leg of in a slide, and that nobody thinks an airbag is a magical invincibility silver-bullet. the point of an airbag is help the odds of ONLY ripping your leg off or having major internal bleeding, rather than actually killing you.

[PNWbrit]

Well said Mrshl. I doubt he'll get it though.

his

other argument, that seems to state that you think that you are absolutely in control of all factors in the mountains all of the time, is well...

very scary.....?

[::: :::]

When it happens you will 100% know when to pull the cord. It crosses the line from, "hey, this is a lot of movement, I need to get to that safe zone" to "this is serious" in a nanosecond.

+1, the difference in those moments is faster than you can reach for the cord, so pull it

[Scotsman50]

Well said Mrshl. I doubt he'll get it though.

his



very scary.....?

The problem with 'ole rog is that he's backed himself into a corner with his " I tour solo in high avy conditions" posturing and can't get out of it without losing face. Therefore he has to continue to posture and promote his ridiculous arguments.... it's a shame really... I like to think of him as the DBT of avy discussions.

[Buster Highmen]

There's some really good deals on airbags here

[aviinfo]

There's another AVI pack now that has a mechanical trigger and an air canister that can be refilled.

[covert]

I'm just here to read rog's input. interesting perspective on protecting people from their own judgement. i generally don't agree with it but ultimately every user has their own appropriate quiver of gear.

[neck beard]

I like to think of him as the DBT of avy discussions.

oooohh fucking bruuutal!

dude.

[Scotsman50]

oooohh fucking bruuutal!

dude.

I agree....that was a bit harsh..sorry rog!
AND I do concede that when I am using my Snowpulse, I have to remember to tell myself that it does not make me invincible and that I shouldn't ski something I wouldn't normally....most of the time it works ...that is until my desire outweighs my intelligence and I use it as a reason to justify my decision. Even knowing that it has that psychological effect on me ( and I know...it shouldn't....but if you are honest IT does whether consciously or unconsciously) I still prefer to have it than not have it.

[My Pet Powder Goat]

you guys got rog all wrong.

He is a madman. A loose cannon. he knows his only chance at self-preservation is to rid himself of all gear, and snowsense. It's how he has stayed alive this whole time, as he would have certainly perished long before, surrounded by his ski partner, holding useless gear and wearing a un-inflated pack.

[icelanticskier]

it'll be very interesting to see how much of an increase in avy related accidents are reported as airbags become more popular. maybe lives will be saved, but maybe more deaths will occur due to trama, equipment failure, or from other parties that may be in or near the runout zones of more confident airbag equipped skiers cutting slopes from above.

i don't think safety equipment is unnecessary. i always tour with beacon/probe/shovel, always have. anything more is unnecessary to/for me. do i think many folks will be more likely to put themselves in more dangerous situations because of some of the newer gear on the market? yup, i sure do.

i get a lot of flack from folks for touring solo on storm and higher danger days and such. funny thing is, none of those folks ever tour solo. folks fear what they don't understand. if they feel they need a partner to be safer, good for them. i tour solo cuz it makes me feel closer/more in tune with my surroundings, is a much more soulful experience for me, and sharpens my awareness knowing that there is no room for fucking up. i like that. if you don't, i don't give a shit. do it how you like.

my main issue is that over the years, more and more every year, that increasing numbers of folks are entering the bc on the latest and greatest gear without having any clue, respect, or proper tact in the mountains to begin with. some of this new gear just may give them an increased false sense of security out there and get themselves or others into trouble.

time will tell i guess....................

rog

[TheDon]

Why wear a beacon then? Just use a recco -- corpse reflector.

[auvgeek]

i don't think safety equipment is unnecessary. i always tour with beacon/probe/shovel, always have. anything more is unnecessary to/for me.

Why do you draw the line there? Why do you think there is an essential difference between beacon/shovel/probe and an avy airbag? It seems arbitrary to the rest of us, which is why Marshal and others have asked why you bother to use any safety equipment at all.

I don't see an essential difference. If you make a legitimate argument for one, you might be taken a little more seriously.

[pde20]

i don't think safety equipment is unnecessary. i always tour with beacon/probe/shovel....blah blah hot air spewing from gaping sanctimonious asshole....

Were you super in tune w/ your surroudings on this particular outing? Did you leave your clue/respect/tact at home in favor or you beacon/shovel/probe on this particular day? Seems like someone who had admittedly "gotten lucky" in the last 9 months might appreciate the empirical evidence regarding increased odds of avoiding burial with this piece of equipment and avoid cunting up this thread to lecture us, but that doesn't seem like your style...can't imagine why you really tour alone as often as you claim.

[My Pet Powder Goat]

Why do you draw the line there? Why do you think there is an essential difference between beacon/shovel/probe and an avy airbag? It seems arbitrary to the rest of us, which is why Marshal and others have asked why you bother to use any safety equipment at all.

I don't see an essential difference. If you make a legitimate argument for one, you might be taken a little more seriously.

Not to mention; since you like to roll solo why even bother with beacon/prob/shovel?...All are useless solo. Really, the only device that would help is a ABS bag.
Rog just gets off on being that Kooky guy that does everything different and flies in the face of conventional wisdom....and he just has to let you know about it.

Were you super in tune w/ your surroudings on this particular outing? Did you leave your clue/respect/tact at home in favor or you beacon/shovel/probe on this particular day? Seems like someone who had admittedly "gotten lucky" in the last 9 months might appreciate the empirical evidence regarding increased odds of avoiding burial with this piece of equipment and avoid cunting up this thread to lecture us, but that doesn't seem like your style...can't imagine why you really tour alone as often as you claim.

nope in rogworld that is just proof that a partner is dangerous, after all he never has been in a slide when he was solo. duh!.

he fails to reconize the fact that accident can and do happen even when prepared

[auvgeek]

Not to mention; since you like to roll solo why even bother with beacon/prob/shovel?...All are useless solo. Really, the only device that would help is a ABS bag.

Yeah, I wasn't gonna mention that. Assumed solo in the bc is like soloing while climbing - different mindset, different rules...no use comparing that to climbing with partners.

Keeping with that analogy, one might say rog is viewing avy airbags like the early climbers viewed camming devices...

[LeeLau]

I have done a lot of ski cuts in my time, seen quite a few fractures in various manners, and once, by lining up all the links in the error chain, been caught in a pretty large avalanche. When it happens you will 100% know when to pull the cord. It crosses the line from, "hey, this is a lot of movement, I need to get to that safe zone" to "this is serious" in a nanosecond.

Just to echo what's said here. Funken.... you'll know when its time to pull that cord.