Bush's covert war in Iran

[Badgerman]

Listen, hoss, you just permanently disqualified yourself from further political discussion, because this shit is just laughable.

Listen, you'd better face reality HOSS.
Islam is here to stay big time and to let 17million Jews be the rudder for our ship of diplomacy is pure folly.

[Blurred]

I have a plan.

We give all of the Israelis a 2 week vacation to Texas. That will help the US economy. While Israel is deserted, we carpet bomb the entire middle east into a sheet of glass. We then send the jews home. The end.

[Jer]

I heard Hersh on Fresh Air yesterday. His speculation was that Bush/Chaney will be more likely to go to war with Iran if it looks like Obama will be the next president. They think McCain will keep the regime change policy intact.

Yeah, dude - I was listening to Hot Air the other day and they said that Bush has got Bin Laden stowed in the basement of tha Whitehouse!

We don't have to worry tho becuase in 2012 the planets are gunna alighn and we'll all live in peace and the Bushies will be banished to Neptune!

[panchosdad]

Yeah, dude - I was listening to Hot Air the other day and they said that Bush has got Bin Laden stowed in the basement of tha Whitehouse!

We don't have to worry tho becuase in 2012 the planets are gunna alighn and we'll all live in peace and the Bushies will be banished to Neptune!

Thanks again for another well reasoned Padded room response. Reading comprehension your strong suit?

[Jer]

Thanks again for another well reasoned Padded room response. Reading comprehension your strong suit?

The terms "well reasoned" and "Padded Room" are mutually exclusive. Dumbass.

[Badgerman]

I have a plan.

We give all of the Israelis a 2 week vacation to Texas. That will help the US economy. While Israel is deserted, we carpet bomb the entire middle east into a sheet of glass. We then send the jews home. The end.

How about we send them to florida and bomb BOTH!

[jon gaper]

all the problems involving islam will vanish....like the muslims killing hindus in india, the muslims killing buddhists in thailand, muslims killing christians in indonesia,the muslims killing sihks in malasia, the muslims killing bahai's in iran, the arabs killing blacks in darfur, the muslims killing christians in nigeria,........ not to mention killing their own daughters and sisters for "honor"

[Platinum Pete]

Maybe your right, But I think Iran is a big threat and terrorist are in Iran planning attacks against the US anyway.

A Nuc in the Hands of those fuck'in middle east religous wacko's is a scary thought. They will line up to blow themselfs up with as many innocent infedel women and children they can. Killing the innocent in the name of god.

Here's the thing - nuclear bombs are tough and expensive to make. They are best suited for threats than for use (like North Korea), especially use by a non-nation terrorist group who the bomb making nation couldn't claim as their own. Iran, or any country, giving an actual bomb to terrorists is not that likely. Maybe they'd share the blueprints, but then the terrorists still need to get a hold of the nuclear material.

Loose nukes from Russia are the worse threat than a nuclear enabled Iran, but that's not the kind of enemy anyone can have an economy stoking war for.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Why does no one, anywhere seem to understand that all Iran needs is nuclear waist(sp?). Won't it be awesome when Hezbollah (wow, that was in Firefox's spell check) can make a Dirty Bomb?

Listen, you'd better face reality HOSS.
Islam is here to stay big time and to let 17million Jews be the rudder for our ship of diplomacy is pure folly.

Fuck you.

[Badgerman]

Why does no one, anywhere seem to understand that all Iran needs is nuclear waist(sp?). Won't it be awesome when Hezbollah (wow, that was in Firefox's spell check) can make a Dirty Bomb?



Fuck you.

Why not be more pragmatic?
Arabs and Persians have the oil. Why cut our own throats by kissing Israels hiney?

Oh, and Fuck you too.

I like my Arab docs from Pakistan WAY better than any Jewish doc or attorney I've encountered.

No dirty bomb would be used on US if we had a balanced foreign policy with respect to Israel.

If Israel would cease expansionalist settlements it could help the situation immensely.

[Jer]

antisemite

[Badgerman]

antisemite

Yeah, always the label thrown around by those feeling guilty.

I never see much posted about Jewish terrorism:


Hamas: A Pale Image of the Jewish Irgun And Lehi Gangs
By Donald Neff

A photograph dated 1947 shows a poster issued by British police forces seeking 18 wanted Jewish terrorists from the Irgun Zvai Leumi and Stern Gang. Pictured at top left is Irgun commander and future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin (AFP Photo).


AS EASY as it is to dismiss clichés as banal and misleading, the troubling problem is that they often cloak an essential truth. Scoffs and derision often greet the cliché that “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.” Yet freedom fighters is exactly how Israelis view the early Zionists who fought in 1947 for the establishment of Israel—and how Palestinians now consider their fighters resisting Israeli occupation.

The reality is that when faced with a superior military force, such as Britain possessed in 1947 and Israel does today against the Palestinians, terror is the underdog’s only viable weapon. Once a state has been established and legitimized, however, as in the cases of Israel and South Africa, the former “terrorists” tend to gain a veil of legitimacy as well. But legitimacy is now being denied Hamas. Even though Palestinians elected a Hamas-led government in free and fair elections, Israel denies it legitimacy on the grounds that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Sixty years ago, however, at the time of the British Mandate, it was Jews in Palestine who mainly waged terrorism against the Palestinians. As Jewish leader David Ben-Gurion recorded in his personal history of Israel: “From 1946 to 1947 there were scarcely any Arab attacks on the Yishuv [the Jewish community in Palestine].”

The same could not be said for the Zionists. Jewish terrorists waged an intense and bloody campaign against the Palestinians, British, and even some Jews who opposed them leading up to the establishment of Israel.

The two major Jewish terror organizations in pre-independence Palestine were the Irgun Zvai Leumi—National Military Organization, NMO, also known by the Hebrew letters Etzel—founded in 1937, and the Lohamei Herut Israel, Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, Lehi in the Hebrew acronym, also known as the Stern Gang after its leader Avraham Stern, known as Yair, founded in 1940.

The Irgun was led by Menachem Begin, the future Israeli prime minister who was a leading proponent of Revisionist Zionism, the militant branch of Zionism pioneered by Vladimir Zeev Jabotinsky, which openly despised the Arabs and sought restoration of what it called Eretz Yisrael, the ancient land of Israel. By this was meant “both sides of the Jordan,” the Irgun slogan meaning all of Palestine and Jordan was the rightful home of the Jews.

Another belief of Begin’s was that of the “fighting Jew,” a romanticized idea expressed in Jabotinsky’s old Betar movement song of “we shall create, with sweat and blood, a race of men, strong, brave and cruel.” Israeli scholar Avishai Margalit translated the verse as “proud, generous and cruel,” adding: “Many are still waiting for the generous part to emerge.”

The Irgun was the dominant Jewish terrorist organization, both in size and the number and frequency of its attacks. Its most spectacular feat up to this time had been the July 22, 1946 blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, with the killing of 91 people—41 Arabs, 28 British and 17 Jews. Mainstream Zionists despised Begin and his Revisionists, although there was cooperation between the two on military matters. Ben-Gurion, the leader of mainstream Zionism, fought throughout his premiership with Begin.

The other major Jewish terrorist group, Lehi, was more extremist than the Irgun, claiming all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates as belonging to the Jews. When Jabotinsky declared a cease-fire in the fight against Britain and its mandate troops in Palestine during World War II, Stern broke with him and founded Lehi. Stern sought alliance with the Nazis, both because they shared an enemy in Britain and because Lehi shared Hitler’s totalitarian ideology. During the war Sternists openly celebrated Nazi victories on the battlefield.

An infamous document called the “Ankara Document” because it was found in the German Embassy in Ankara after the war, detailed Avraham Stern’s ideas “concerning the solution of the Jewish question in Europe.” It was dated Jan. 11, 1941. At the time, Stern was still a member of the Irgun, which he called by its initials, NMO. Wrote Stern: “The evacuation of the Jewish masses from Europe is a precondition for solving the Jewish question; but this can only be made possible and complete through the settlement of these masses in the home of the Jewish People, Palestine, and through the establishment of a Jewish state in its historical boundaries....The NMO...is well acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities toward Zionist activity inside Germany and toward Zionist emigration plans....The NMO is closely related to the totalitarian movements in Europe in its ideology and structure.”

In the Partition period, Irgun had around 2,000 men, while Lehi had about 800. Though the memberships were comparatively small, the damage these two groups caused in inflaming animosity between Arab and Jew was considerable. When Stern was killed by British police in 1942, leadership of Lehi was shared; among the leaders were Nathan Yalin-Mor, one of the eventual killers of Count Bernadotte, and Yitzhak Shamir, another future prime minister of Israel.

Arab terrorists carried out some major operations as well, including the bombing of the Jewish Agency and the Palestine Post. But in contrast to Jewish violence, it was unorganized and episodic. As historian Michael C. Hudson noted: “Organized Jewish violence against the British and Arabs (exemplified by the Irgun’s bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946), however, was far more systematic and successful than that of the Palestinians, and the latter were unable to play a significant role in the final years of the Mandate.”

The Jewish Agency, as the official representative of the Jewish community, repeatedly denied any responsibility for the acts of the Irgun and Lehi, maintaining they were underground terrorist groups operating outside the law. However, there was close cooperation among Irgun, Lehi and the Haganah underground army under an agreement called the Hebrew Resistance Movement and aimed specifically against the British Mandatory government. It went into force in the fall of 1945, when “Irgun and Lehi accepted Haganah discipline in the conduct of all armed operations,” in the words of historian Noah Lucas.

By December 1947, British High Commissioner Alan Cunningham reported to London: “...the Haganah and the dissident groups are now working so closely together that the Agency’s claim that they cannot control the dissidents is inadmissible

[Nathan Explosion]

Listen, you'd better face reality HOSS.
Islam is here to stay big time and to let 17million Jews be the rudder for our ship of diplomacy is pure folly.

Ok, jackass. Please tell me how aligning ourselves with a religious group that has literally ZERO unity, and has had infighting long before we existed, and will long after we're gone will resolve anything.

But hey, USA #1, right, moron?

[13]

i can't say i'm surprised.

i'd bet my next paycheck that these covert operations began long before bush was elected and will continue regardless of who wins in november.

why? because the iranian leadership is a bunch of fucking whack jobs bent on dominating the middle east by hook or by crook.

[Badgerman]

i can't say i'm surprised.

i'd bet my next paycheck that these covert operations began long before bush was elected and will continue regardless of who wins in november.

why? because the iranian leadership is a bunch of fucking whack jobs bent on dominating the middle east by hook or by crook.

The only whack jobs were by US. In 1953 we and the Brits overthrew their democratically elected leader because he wanted to renegotiate the oil contracts and we installed the Shah.
The resulting "blowback" was the Ayatollah and the seizing of the embassy hostages

The mideast would eventually reach a state of relative peace if we would stay out of their way...but NO....we have to start using covert operations again with the resulting resentment by the people who get handed a puppet government. These folks are not stupid and we will get the resultant "blowback" again because we fail to learn time after time.

[Badgerman]

Ok, jackass. Please tell me how aligning ourselves with a religious group that has literally ZERO unity, and has had infighting long before we existed, and will long after we're gone will resolve anything.

But hey, USA #1, right, moron?

Absolutely right US #1.
Arab and Persia would certainly unite with the US if we went neutral with regards to Israel. What benefit does Israel bring to the US other than make it a terrorist target?

[belgian]

Jeeeeezus, all the unfounded Islamic hate in this thread is downright embarrassing.

Lets just look at this on a basic operational level, regardless of the fact that attacking Iran would ignite a shitstorm bigger than you can imagine and would probably ultimately ring in the end to the grand ol' USA as we know it.

Our military is already overextend. We're fighting two wars half the world away (one of which, might I add, we are losing at quite a fantastic pace, and the other is at BEST at a stalemate) our military is tired, breaking down, and slowly getting fed up of fighting for broken policies and people who clearly aren't all that into what we're trying to sell them. Fighting in Iran would be tantamount to simply extending the already failing war in Afghanistan (the terrain is similar if not identical, only there are millions more people in Iran). Also, Iran is a bit of a major player in the Arab economic realm, do you really think that the Saudis would be terribly pleased if we started blowing shit up over there? And before you get all defensive and say "aww, fuck the Saudis" realize that you are the people who want them to start drilling for more oil to power your vehicles and lower your general cost of living.

On a more practical basis, don't plan on an all out attack in Iran anytime soon. The Muslim leadership there is far too strong and the resistance would be unbelievable, especially if you went and started bombing Shi'a shrine cities and such. Also, Bush really only gives a shit about the oil, and Iran isn't the place for that. Maybe we'd get some tasty Shiraz wine and some purdy looking carpets out of the deal but I wouldn't expect much more. Bush's wars were started (excepting perhaps the Afghani one) in the interest of making more money for the wealthy in this country. An all out Iranian all out war wouldn't do that as well. Same reason we've left Kim Jong-Il the fuck alone, his people are starving as it is, what do we want with that?

Its not practical and its far from intelligent. And those of you throwing out the disgusting prejudices in this here thread need a tire iron upside the head and a little learning to go with it. You don't know what you're talking about and you know it, stop calling people douchebags and telling people to fuck off when they present a challenging idea. It doesn't help your argument, just exposes the fact further that you really have no clue what you're saying but you're in here SAYIN' IT ANYWAY. Though I guess that's the newly accepted Americ'n way, right?

[summit]

I like my Arab docs from Pakistan WAY better than any Jewish doc or attorney I've encountered.

No dirty bomb would be used on US if we had a balanced foreign policy with respect to Israel.

If Israel would cease expansionalist settlements it could help the situation immensely.

You are remarkably stupid an also just destroyed your claimed pretense of being "antiIsrael not antiJew" with your "I don't like Jewish doctors" nonsequitor. Additionally, Pakistanis are NOT Arabs.

Even ignoring your blatant hatred for Jews, your assertions that everything would be suddenly hunky dory between the USA and Islamic terror groups if the US stopped supporting Israel is just beyond stupid. Europe hasn't been a supporter of Israel since the 60s and yet Europe has plenty of problems with Islamic terrorists and aggressive Islamist civil strife. You also seem to fail to understand that most of these Muslim terror groups have little problem killing other Muslims for secular, ethnic, and tribal differences. The same goes for many Islamist states.

Not that I am endorsing all of Israel's policies, but Israel is NOT the sole cause of strife between the Muslim world and the rest of the planet. Nor is there sense or honor in your assertion that a democratic ally should be abandoned to appease terrorists.

PS If we really want oil, the US has oil reserves to last it 100+ years at current consumption if we would only develop the shale oil fields.

In summary: Spew your thinly camouflaged hate somewhere else.

[Badgerman]

Additionally, Pakistanis are NOT Arabs.
.

True


My post should read:

I like my MUSLIM docs from Pakistan WAY better than any Jewish doc or attorney I've encountered.



Sorry, but it is true.

[rugbydave]

True


My post should read:

I like my MUSLIM docs from Pakistan WAY better than any Jewish doc or attorney I've encountered.



Sorry, but it is true.

And it's on that basis that you want to formulate foreign policy?

[Dexter Rutecki]

You need all sorts of excellent doctors, religious persuasion aside. If someone could reanimate Freud it would be a good start.

[Poop~Ghost]

mentioning NPR - you just reminded me that I need to go listen to the jason bateman interview on freshair. That guy is great.

[Craven Morehead]

And it's on that basis that you want to formulate foreign policy?

NO
We should be totally practical.

Who has the oil?
Who has the population?

It ain't Israel.

I say again:
Islam is here to stay big time and to let 17million Jews be the rudder for our ship of diplomacy is pure folly.


Would you go to war with mainland China over Taiwan?
I wouldn't

[Nathan Explosion]

Absolutely right US #1.
Arab and Persia would certainly unite with the US if we went neutral with regards to Israel. What benefit does Israel bring to the US other than make it a terrorist target?

Okay, I was wrong. NOW you've officially DQ'ed yourself, Huckleberry.

[Jer]

Yeah, always the label thrown around by those feeling guilty.

I never see much posted about Jewish terrorism:


Hamas: A Pale Image of the Jewish Irgun And Lehi Gangs
By Donald Neff

A photograph dated 1947 shows a poster issued by British police forces seeking 18 wanted Jewish terrorists from the Irgun Zvai Leumi and Stern Gang. Pictured at top left is Irgun commander and future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin (AFP Photo).


AS EASY as it is to dismiss clichés as banal and misleading, the troubling problem is that they often cloak an essential truth. Scoffs and derision often greet the cliché that “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.” Yet freedom fighters is exactly how Israelis view the early Zionists who fought in 1947 for the establishment of Israel—and how Palestinians now consider their fighters resisting Israeli occupation.

The reality is that when faced with a superior military force, such as Britain possessed in 1947 and Israel does today against the Palestinians, terror is the underdog’s only viable weapon. Once a state has been established and legitimized, however, as in the cases of Israel and South Africa, the former “terrorists” tend to gain a veil of legitimacy as well. But legitimacy is now being denied Hamas. Even though Palestinians elected a Hamas-led government in free and fair elections, Israel denies it legitimacy on the grounds that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Sixty years ago, however, at the time of the British Mandate, it was Jews in Palestine who mainly waged terrorism against the Palestinians. As Jewish leader David Ben-Gurion recorded in his personal history of Israel: “From 1946 to 1947 there were scarcely any Arab attacks on the Yishuv [the Jewish community in Palestine].”

The same could not be said for the Zionists. Jewish terrorists waged an intense and bloody campaign against the Palestinians, British, and even some Jews who opposed them leading up to the establishment of Israel.

The two major Jewish terror organizations in pre-independence Palestine were the Irgun Zvai Leumi—National Military Organization, NMO, also known by the Hebrew letters Etzel—founded in 1937, and the Lohamei Herut Israel, Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, Lehi in the Hebrew acronym, also known as the Stern Gang after its leader Avraham Stern, known as Yair, founded in 1940.

The Irgun was led by Menachem Begin, the future Israeli prime minister who was a leading proponent of Revisionist Zionism, the militant branch of Zionism pioneered by Vladimir Zeev Jabotinsky, which openly despised the Arabs and sought restoration of what it called Eretz Yisrael, the ancient land of Israel. By this was meant “both sides of the Jordan,” the Irgun slogan meaning all of Palestine and Jordan was the rightful home of the Jews.

Another belief of Begin’s was that of the “fighting Jew,” a romanticized idea expressed in Jabotinsky’s old Betar movement song of “we shall create, with sweat and blood, a race of men, strong, brave and cruel.” Israeli scholar Avishai Margalit translated the verse as “proud, generous and cruel,” adding: “Many are still waiting for the generous part to emerge.”

The Irgun was the dominant Jewish terrorist organization, both in size and the number and frequency of its attacks. Its most spectacular feat up to this time had been the July 22, 1946 blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, with the killing of 91 people—41 Arabs, 28 British and 17 Jews. Mainstream Zionists despised Begin and his Revisionists, although there was cooperation between the two on military matters. Ben-Gurion, the leader of mainstream Zionism, fought throughout his premiership with Begin.

The other major Jewish terrorist group, Lehi, was more extremist than the Irgun, claiming all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates as belonging to the Jews. When Jabotinsky declared a cease-fire in the fight against Britain and its mandate troops in Palestine during World War II, Stern broke with him and founded Lehi. Stern sought alliance with the Nazis, both because they shared an enemy in Britain and because Lehi shared Hitler’s totalitarian ideology. During the war Sternists openly celebrated Nazi victories on the battlefield.

An infamous document called the “Ankara Document” because it was found in the German Embassy in Ankara after the war, detailed Avraham Stern’s ideas “concerning the solution of the Jewish question in Europe.” It was dated Jan. 11, 1941. At the time, Stern was still a member of the Irgun, which he called by its initials, NMO. Wrote Stern: “The evacuation of the Jewish masses from Europe is a precondition for solving the Jewish question; but this can only be made possible and complete through the settlement of these masses in the home of the Jewish People, Palestine, and through the establishment of a Jewish state in its historical boundaries....The NMO...is well acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities toward Zionist activity inside Germany and toward Zionist emigration plans....The NMO is closely related to the totalitarian movements in Europe in its ideology and structure.”

In the Partition period, Irgun had around 2,000 men, while Lehi had about 800. Though the memberships were comparatively small, the damage these two groups caused in inflaming animosity between Arab and Jew was considerable. When Stern was killed by British police in 1942, leadership of Lehi was shared; among the leaders were Nathan Yalin-Mor, one of the eventual killers of Count Bernadotte, and Yitzhak Shamir, another future prime minister of Israel.

Arab terrorists carried out some major operations as well, including the bombing of the Jewish Agency and the Palestine Post. But in contrast to Jewish violence, it was unorganized and episodic. As historian Michael C. Hudson noted: “Organized Jewish violence against the British and Arabs (exemplified by the Irgun’s bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946), however, was far more systematic and successful than that of the Palestinians, and the latter were unable to play a significant role in the final years of the Mandate.”

The Jewish Agency, as the official representative of the Jewish community, repeatedly denied any responsibility for the acts of the Irgun and Lehi, maintaining they were underground terrorist groups operating outside the law. However, there was close cooperation among Irgun, Lehi and the Haganah underground army under an agreement called the Hebrew Resistance Movement and aimed specifically against the British Mandatory government. It went into force in the fall of 1945, when “Irgun and Lehi accepted Haganah discipline in the conduct of all armed operations,” in the words of historian Noah Lucas.

By December 1947, British High Commissioner Alan Cunningham reported to London: “...the Haganah and the dissident groups are now working so closely together that the Agency’s claim that they cannot control the dissidents is inadmissible

That's cool - all I have to do to get you to do some huge cut& paste job is type one little word. The retarded are so easy to possess.