Universal health care.

[Tuckerman]

If you have it do you like it? Would you rather pay for it yourself or the government take it out of your pay? What are the pros and cons?

[hemas]

I like it and have i.

But I also have an insurance (which isn't all that expensive, since we do have universal health care) that will get me to really good doctors if/when I break myself (like my knee last Feb).

And yes, it comes from my paycheck as high taxes (but I still manage to live).

[philippeR]

If you have it do you like it? Would you rather pay for it yourself or the government take it out of your pay? What are the pros and cons?

I have it.
Basicaly, I like it.
I won't get into the specifics of the french system, but, technicaly, it's not financed by real taxes (but by a part of one's salary and by employers) and not run by the governement (but by specific governing bodies administred by unions and representaives of the employers).
It's not a socialized system in the sense that there are both a public sector (hospital mainly) and a huge private sector (private hospital, individual practicioners...) and that one have the choice of his doctor.
The Social Security will refund your expenses according to its tables (most of the times you actualy won't have to pay in the first place. The doc / hospital will charge the SS directly).
Some doctors will charge according to the table, some will charge higher fees. Some doctors will have a part of their activity in a public hospital (thus virtualy for free for their patient) and another one in a private practice (sometimes inside the hospital) at a higher cost.
Many french have a complemental private health insurance that covers what the Social Security won't pay for : Consultation fees of some practitioners, single room in hospital, better quality prosthesis (denture, glasses...poorly covered by the Social Security)...
The system is totaly free for the lower incomes.

Pro :
Close to real universal health care.
Relatively cheap.
Good quality
Freedom to choose your doctor.

Cons :
It's bankrupt...
(I believe it could be more balanced without major alterations, but that would be a very long story...)

[mrw]

It's bankrupt...

PLEASE remember this when this subject rears it's ugly head in the coming election. Not only will the cost be overwhelming, it will be necessary to carry supplemental insurance to insure quality health care.

This country is already bankrupt as a result of entitlements. It will not be able to meet its obligations to Social Security and Medicare in the near future and the citizens of this country are already paying an outrageous percentage of their income in taxes.

The United States Government has proven conclusively that it is completely unable to successfully manage the most basic of programs without waste and fraud and capitulation to special interests.

Think before you vote. You and your loved ones health and well being hangs in the balance.

[Toadman]

PLEASE remember this when this subject rears it's ugly head in the coming election. Not only will the cost be overwhelming, it will be necessary to carry supplemental insurance to insure quality health care.

This country is already bankrupt as a result of entitlements. It will not be able to meet its obligations to Social Security and Medicare in the near future and the citizens of this country are already paying an outrageous percentage of their income in taxes.

The United States Government has proven conclusively that it is completely unable to successfully manage the most basic of programs without waste and fraud and capitulation to special interests.

Think before you vote. You and your loved ones health and well being hangs in the balance.

I'm not a big fan of the private sector health insurance plan either. Something about the middle man and their profit motives over the concerns for those they claim to insure just doesn't seem the most efficient way to do health care. However, having a federally run program akin to FEMA and Huricane Katrina is a scarey thought too.

[philippeR]

Hmm, I should have add a winkie next to "bankrupt"... I should have known better...

It's not really bankrupt. But it's in deficit.

[PNWbrit]

PLEASE remember this when this subject rears it's ugly head in the coming election. Not only will the cost be overwhelming,

No we can afford it easily and it would probably be cheaper than than the profit driven system we have.

it will be necessary to carry supplemental insurance to insure quality health care.

No but it will be available if you feel the need.

I had it and miss it. I hate having to consider healthcare as a business. I'm fairly certain Doctors don't like to either.

You and your loved ones health and well being hangs in the balance.

[mrw]

That is the dilemma. For Profit health care should produce a better quality of care but the system is out of whack. When I was a kid, a doctor's standard of living was superior to the average working guy but not say 10-20 times better.

A family friend was a cardiologist. He owned a nicer house than us and flew his own small Piper aircraft. Their families vacation trips were nicer and so forth.

When my mom was in Fox Chase Cancer Center, I refereed to Sundays as "car show day"
Aston Martins, Ferrari's, Bentleys and super ,super high dollar limited production sport cars all appeared in the doctors parking lot.

Drug companies are raping everyone. Chain pharmacies are screwing everyone.

A balance needs to be found that rewards those who enter the field but limits price gouging and profiteering

[mrw]

Hmm, I should have add a winkie next to "bankrupt"... I should have known better...

It's not really bankrupt. But it's in deficit.

deficit is bankrupt. The only way out is to cut services or raise rates.

[Hugh Conway]

The United States Government has proven conclusively that it is completely unable to successfully manage the most basic of programs without waste and fraud and capitulation to special interests.

private health insurance is, of course, immune to fraud

UnitedHealth Group Inc.'s former chief executive officer William W. McGuire will keep more than $800 million in stock options after repaying over $600 million because of a backdating scandal

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695234209,00.html

for someone advising people to think, you should think about the difference between bankrupt and deficit.

[hhski]

I think that what needs to be understood is that government sponsored insurance or care shouldnt entitle all to the very best we have to offer for care. Foodstamps dont buy a meal at a 5 star restaurant and govt mandates on auto safety dont get us all BMWs. There are drugs and treatments that are adequate not state of the art. Also do you want to pay for disease treatment that was self induced? Obesity liver failure lung cancer......come on. We that are here are pretty obcessed with alpine sports but we dont run our lives into the ground in pursuit of happiness. We all make choices some not so good. All national care programs have limits. In Canada and the Uk you have to wait for your ration of care and if you DIE while waiting oh well. Health care is the only commodity that is paid for after the service is rendered. There is alot of elective stuff being done that will go away if it is nationalized. Be careful what you wish for.

[mrw]

for someone advising people to think, you should think about the difference between bankrupt and deficit.

Well, I know it is almost impossible for a federally funded program to be "bankrupt" for as long as they have the authority to dip into the well of tax dollars, bankruptcy of the program will unfortunately never occur.The deficits will continue to mount and the services provided will diminish.

If this country is hell bent on universal health care, first let's make the government overhaul Medicare/Medicade and make it function without deficits. If it is able to demonstrate that it is capable of that, I would be willing to examine expanding its scope further into the private sector.

The reality is, that is not going to happen because the costs far outweigh the allocated funding and the "check" will never come due because politicians don't want to lose their jobs.

Quite a few people in the 18-30 year age group choose to go without coverage because characteristically, they are at low risk of serious illness.
The first step to fixing the health care crisis in this country is to force these folks into the system to spread the risk and lower payouts in ratio to the payer pool.

[Cliff Huckable]

I've had experience with the systems in the USA, Canada, France, and the UK.

Canada's and France's are excellent. Don't know about France, but Canadian wait times for most things are pretty much the same as the US (don't let the HMO lobbyists and their late-night comedians fool you).
There are problems in both systems, mainly funding strain - and from US corporations which want to turn every country into the US.

The UK system I can't really comment on since I was there in the late 80's and I'm sure things have changed. At that time though, I'd rank it quite below France and Canada.

The US system has great equipment and good doctors but the priority is not anyone's health but maximizing profits. Add the millions without coverage, and poor public facilities, and you have a nightmare.
People, lots of people, die and/or suffer simply because they don't have enough money, while health Co., CEO's make millions - hundreds of millions.
I have no idea how to fix that system but I'm confident that it won't change unless the corporations want it to.

[nikster140]

Also do you want to pay for disease treatment that was self induced? Obesity liver failure lung cancer......come on. We that are here are pretty obcessed with alpine sports but we dont run our lives into the ground in pursuit of happiness.

That's so narrow-minded. To someone who didn't ski, paying for the medical care of people who get into accidents on the hill would be just as ridiculous to them as the thought of paying for someone else's obesity problem (which, by the way, isn't necessarily due to "bad choices") is to you.

[Beaver]

I have it.

Pros, - I have it if I need it. It pays ambulance costs which includes medivac, heivac...
- It's not too expensive.

Cons - I never use it. Wait, that's not a bad thing.
- It is slow as hell because there is a lack of funding for hospitals,nurses, doctors equipment.... resulting in huge wait times for procedures.

[nick > jesus]

i think its a good idea, but it would never work in America

we are a country that fucked up universal schooling, so i don't see universal heath care working out too well

[Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo]

- It is slow as hell because there is a lack of funding for hospitals,nurses, doctors equipment.... resulting in huge wait times for procedures.

Is this just personal experience or would you say this is more wide-spread in Canada(or perhaps just in more rural areas?) I ask because in these threads I feel like I always hear some people saying this and other people saying it's bs cooked up by private ins. companies trying to make americans stick with what we have.

[Cliff Huckable]

Is this just personal experience or would you say this is more wide-spread in Canada(or perhaps just in more rural areas?) I ask because in these threads I feel like I always hear some people saying this and other people saying it's bs cooked up by private ins. companies trying to make americans stick with what we have.

There's a constant push (from the health corporations) to make Americans fear "Canadian-style care", "universal health care", "gay Hollywood satanic freedom-hating care", whatever you want to call it.
The prescription drug issue was impossible to cloud though. People know they need Drug X, and if it Drug X is cheaper across the street, why not buy it there. So, Americans started buying their drugs from Canadistan...is that still going on or has the pharma industry figured out a way to get the government to prevent that kind of competition?

[stuckathuntermtn]

This country is already bankrupt as a result of entitlements. It will not be able to meet its obligations to Social Security and Medicare in the near future and the citizens of this country are already paying an outrageous percentage of their income in taxes.

Outrageous? We pay lower taxes and work harder for less compensation/benefits and any other western country (almost, I think, yeah, and Japan).
A simple copay system could easily be figured out. Because it's not for profit it will be cheaper than HMO's and you will be able to see any doctor.
I like my government slow and bureaucratic, it supposed to keep anyone from getting too much power. Think TWO houses of law makers.

[pheenster]

Is this just personal experience or would you say this is more wide-spread in Canada(or perhaps just in more rural areas?) I ask because in these threads I feel like I always hear some people saying this and other people saying it's bs cooked up by private ins. companies trying to make americans stick with what we have.

In my experience, if you get seriously ill in Canada you usually get taken care of pretty quickly. If, however, you need elective surgery (hip replacement, stuff like that) be prepared to rot on a waiting list for what can be a very long time.

Way too complicated a topic to deal with in a short post (or even a long one), but there are IMO pros and cons to both systems. The US health system is used to scare children at night up here, but our own system is not without its issues. You're never going to be refused insurance here because you're a "bad risk" but on the other hand a guy I know waited almost two years for elective surgery.

[philippeR]

In my experience, if you get seriously ill in Canada you usually get taken care of pretty quickly. If, however, you need elective surgery (hip replacement, stuff like that) be prepared to rot on a waiting list for what can be a very long time.

Way too complicated a topic to deal with in a short post (or even a long one), but there are IMO pros and cons to both systems. The US health system is used to scare children at night up here, but our own system is not without its issues. You're never going to be refused insurance here because you're a "bad risk" but on the other hand a guy I know waited almost two years for elective surgery.

No such UK or Canada style waiting lists en France.
Obviously emergencies are taken care off faster, but I've not heard strories of ridiculously long wait.
And, yes, social security issues iz complicated matter...

[bc]

I think health is a bad idea generally. Maximization requires minimization of equal inputs of equilateral proportions. When these are equidistant from quasi-unanimous entities the emergent forces are disingenuous.

[warthog]

Hmm, I should have add a winkie next to "bankrupt"... I should have known better...

It's not really bankrupt. But it's in deficit.

Do you see that changing any time soon? I mean, almost 30% of your populaton is not working, or hardly working. It is a tough call for that other 70% to pick up the slack for the immigrants that come in daily.

I know plenty of people in France that are fed up with the system. If you are perceived to be able to pay, you pay. If not, it is free. The "taxes" are outrageous. I am not sure how they will fund it further, without making some huge changes. I think it will cost that 70% more, while the poor immigrants ride for free.

[philippeR]

Do you see that changing any time soon? I mean, almost 30% of your populaton is not working, or hardly working. It is a tough call for that other 70% to pick up the slack for the immigrants that come in daily.

I know plenty of people in France that are fed up with the system. If you are perceived to be able to pay, you pay. If not, it is free. The "taxes" are outrageous. I am not sure how they will fund it further, without making some huge changes. I think it will cost that 70% more, while the poor immigrants ride for free.

I don't know where you found the 70/30 % figure.
The ride is indeed free for the poors, immigrants or not (It makes sense, if you ask me, to have those able to pay, to pay...). Now, I'd challenge the assumption that the poor do not pay taxes. They do, each time they buy something. And the rich immingrants pay the same taxes as rich french nationals...
I'm not sure our taxes are so outragous though. I believe our income taxes are on par, maybe lower, on average, than in the US. And many things are free, or way cheaper, than on the states. Like healthcare or education.
You may favor a different philosophy, less socialized, but I'm unconvinced that our system is ultimately more expensive than yours when you're in my position (middle aged, father of 2).

I agree the system needs revamping. Mostly by charging more to the higher incomes (that would be me )... Today, rates are the same to everyone. And by streamlining the procedures, administration of the system.

[mrw]

Outrageous? We pay lower taxes and work harder for less compensation/benefits and any other western country (almost, I think, yeah, and Japan).
A simple copay system could easily be figured out. Because it's not for profit it will be cheaper than HMO's and you will be able to see any doctor.
I like my government slow and bureaucratic, it supposed to keep anyone from getting too much power. Think TWO houses of law makers.

Add up payroll taxes, real estate taxes, county taxes, state taxes, local taxes, sales taxes, fuel taxes, telecommunication taxes, capital gain taxes, estate taxes and then tell me you are under taxed.

Oh, while you are at it, take corporate taxes and add them in too because you really don't think they aren't passed on directly to the consumer do you?

Then lets take the dollar figure needed to collect and distribute those taxes to the various government entities and add that in because those costs are also passed along down the line.

Are you still under taxed? Don't forget the famous Social Security Tax.

What exactly are you recieving for all of those taxes?

What ever it is, don't you think you could provide for yourself at a much lower cost if all of that money was in your pocket?

This government does not trust you with the money you earn. Like a stern parent, they rip it from your pocket and put it to use as they see fit.