How to stop a gunman.....?

[truckeelocal]

The media can give the impression of America as a killing field. It simply isn't.

Yes, it simply is. Look at the statistics. If nothing is wrong then 12,000 firearm homicides are acceptable in our desire to maintain our current interpretation of our 2nd amendment rights.

[MeatPuppet]

Yes, it simply is. Look at the statistics. If nothing is wrong then 12,000 firearm homicides are acceptable in our desire to maintain our current interpretation of our 2nd amendment rights.

You seem to have a penchant for misrepresentation. Do you do this on purpose or are you just unable to understand what is being said?

I didn't say nothing was wrong. I said America isn't a killing field.

The killing is not distributed equally across the country. If it were then for every 100 people you know, 4 of them should die every year due to gun violence(12mil being 4% of the 300mil in America). Do you lose four friends a year to gun violence...every year? I don't. Nor do I know anyone who does. But there are neighborhoods I can go to where any randomly chosen person who lives there could give me the names of 10, 20, 30 people they have lost to gun violence.

The problems tend to be very localized, so the statistics...hell, that number, 12mil, is misleading and doesn't even begin to paint an accurate picture of life in America.

But it is good fodder for anti gun tools like yourself. Keep preaching your twisted view of this country. I have no doubt there are people gullible enough to believe you.

[truckeelocal]

I didn't say nothing was wrong. I said America isn't a killing field.

The killing is not distributed equally across the country. If it were then for every 100 people you know, 4 of them should die every year due to gun violence(12mil being 4% of the 300mil in America).

No, 12 THOUSAND firearm homicides, not 12 MILLION - see, no problem. But my point is that gun advocates have circled the wagons. No extra gun controls. Oh, except for that VT shooter. Hindsight is a great equalizer and he shouldn't have had the guns. But you're right there are huge differences in kill rates. Males are much much higher killers and victims. Stupid, aggressive, males especially so.

[Tippster]

If 12000 people died annually from Boomerang Injuries you could bet your 2nd Amendment that they'd be banned.

Yet they are an "arm."

[rungsp]

I'm in the UK...where most of you probably think we don't have guns.
Well I have several guns...all legal and I know how to use them!

So any scumbag postal worker who comes to my house intending to do his worst had better watch out!:

Plan A:

When I hear him break in I will run to the room where I have hidden the keys to my gun cabinets (in a hiding place that by law nobody else, even my wife, is allowed to know).
I'll get the keys and run to the cabinets.
I'll select the 2 keys I need to get out my rifle.
I'll then go to another place with another key and unlock the ammo cabinet that has the rifle bolt in it too.
I'll assemble the rifle and load it.

By then the postal worker will be shitting his pants, knowing that his days are numbered.

I've not actually practised this, but I figure it shouldn't take more than 5 minutes in total.

Plan B : "RUN!"

On reflection...plan B seems the best.


rungsp, a.k.a. the Rambinator!

[greg]

The media can give the impression of America as a killing field. It simply isn't.

hm i don't get it. you introduced that expression yourself and now you are arguing against it. that doesn't make a lot of sense except if you wanted to pretend roo was claiming america to be a killing field.

so this is either freud speaking, or your selfproclaimed moral standards in arguing don't apply for yourself.

Unfortunately that politeness isn't bred out of any notion of civil duty or personal responsibility. It stems from fear. An entire nation of people so terrified they have to arm themselves due to fear of their fellows is just tragic.

as far as i see it, he was talking about anxiety not about what causes this anxiety. he didn't even say if the cause was real or just some wierd subconscious feeling.

sorry for limited english..

[Roo]

I understand what you are saying, but I think you are being a bit dramatic. You don't wear your seatbelt because you are terrified of being injured in an auto accident. You wear it because it is the prudent thing to do. The same thing is true for 99.9% of the people I know who own/carry a firearm.

I can't believe that carrying a gun makes you less likely to be shot. I'd be interested in seeing statistics on the number of people shot with their own firearms.

[greg]

I can't believe that carrying a gun makes you less likely to be shot. I'd be interested in seeing statistics on the number of people shot with their own firearms.

and now he is talking about safety. does a gun really make you safe, or does it just give you some wierd subconscious feeling of being safe.

sorry for excessive annoyence..

and yes roo is my personal hero and stalking him makes me happy.

[Endlessseason]

I haven't watched more than a few inadvertent seconds of news on this tragedy--this latest, sad, American-style mass execution. I don't watch much tv in the first place, and if I walk into a room that has something about this mass murder playing on tv, I either walk right back out or turn it off.

I don't know this murderer's name, his face, his story, his supposed cause (if he had one), or anything else about him. Nor do I want to.

Several years ago, after a high school student in the eastern US shot and killed several students in his school, I wrote a letter to the editor which was printed and hopefully read by a few people who might start thinking a little more deeply about a simple and obvious place to start if we truly want to curtail actions of madmen such as these.

I don't have the time tonight to get into all the details of what I wrote, but, it is my belief that until we make a fundamental change in our society, and stop allowing lunatics like this to become objects of our fascination, it will not stop.

If this freak had lived his exact same life (with all the same persecutions and unfair treatments he may or may not have claimed to have received) in a society that doesn't glamorize, let alone publicize, the perpetrators of heinous crimes such as these, I am convinced that there would have been less chance of its occurrence. If not this particular guy, then the next one to come along.

It would take a collective will, and years to achieve, but until our society decides it will no longer buy what the deranged are selling, these types of tragedies have little chance of decreasing.

If killers of this ilk--the kind that actually want to turn their act into some sort of message--were to know for certain that no one would EVER hear their message or their name, it would most certainly take away the incentive for some of them.

I propose that our media no longer report these reprehensible acts the way the perpetrators imagine. In fact, I propose that the assailant's name be removed from history and turned into a case name, or number, and that the perpetrator's name never be spoken or written again. Anywhere. Ever.

No one should have ever known this Virginia Tech guy's name. If nothing else, society and survivors could have had some satisfaction in knowing that he may have taken the lives of their loved ones but that's where it would end. He would not have been allowed to cause them any further pain from the grave, with his name forever attached to this crime.

Instead of inadvertently glamorizing something like this (especially to the impressionable minds of the deranged), wouldn't it be far more effective to cut off any associations of publicity through negative behavior--render impotent any thought of self-aggrandization via an act of violence.

Sure there would still be the occasional Dahmer, Bundy, or Manson, but we wouldn't know their names. We wouldn't need to. I wish I didn't. I'm not saying the motivations of those particular three were the same as this Virginia Tech scum's. However, I am saying that the VT killer most likely knew THEIR names. I haven't read or heard that fact anywhere, but I'm certain that somewhere in the brain cells of deranged individuals, the names of infamous killers who have come before are likely stored in about the same location "sane" people keep their fantasy leagues or vacation plans.

Society--students, scientists and psychologists can still study the backgrounds and lives of these killers as they try to understand and preempt the creation of the next mass-murderer. They just don't need to do it with their real name.

It is clear that through the VT killer's manipulation of the media he had the road to infamy all figured out. Since that's what makes a tiny fraction of the truly disturbed among us tick, that is precisely what needs to be completely taken away if we ever decide we've had enough of this sickening behavior.

In the meantime, we'll all just keep seeing even more sickos get their 15 minutes--more of them and more often--until we are ultimately forced to do something substantive about it.

If we ever really want to stop a gunman, it better start long before he has the gun in his hands. [/endofmyrant]

[rungsp]

Good rant though Endless....a point well worth making.

[StoneCold]

I haven't watched more than a few inadvertent seconds of news on this tragedy--this latest, sad, American-style mass execution. I don't watch much tv in the first place, and if I walk into a room that has something about this mass murder playing on tv, I either walk right back out or turn it off.

I don't know this murderer's name, his face, his story, his supposed cause (if he had one), or anything else about him. Nor do I want to.

Several years ago, after a high school student in the eastern US shot and killed several students in his school, I wrote a letter to the editor which was printed and hopefully read by a few people who might start thinking a little more deeply about a simple and obvious place to start if we truly want to curtail actions of madmen such as these.

I don't have the time tonight to get into all the details of what I wrote, but, it is my belief that until we make a fundamental change in our society, and stop allowing lunatics like this to become objects of our fascination, it will not stop.

If this freak had lived his exact same life (with all the same persecutions and unfair treatments he may or may not have claimed to have received) in a society that doesn't glamorize, let alone publicize, the perpetrators of heinous crimes such as these, I am convinced that there would have been less chance of its occurrence. If not this particular guy, then the next one to come along.

It would take a collective will, and years to achieve, but until our society decides it will no longer buy what the deranged are selling, these types of tragedies have little chance of decreasing.

If killers of this ilk--the kind that actually want to turn their act into some sort of message--were to know for certain that no one would EVER hear their message or their name, it would most certainly take away the incentive for some of them.

I propose that our media no longer report these reprehensible acts the way the perpetrators imagine. In fact, I propose that the assailant's name be removed from history and turned into a case name, or number, and that the perpetrator's name never be spoken or written again. Anywhere. Ever.

No one should have ever known this Virginia Tech guy's name. If nothing else, society and survivors could have had some satisfaction in knowing that he may have taken the lives of their loved ones but that's where it would end. He would not have been allowed to cause them any further pain from the grave, with his name forever attached to this crime.

Instead of inadvertently glamorizing something like this (especially to the impressionable minds of the deranged), wouldn't it be far more effective to cut off any associations of publicity through negative behavior--render impotent any thought of self-aggrandization via an act of violence.

Sure there would still be the occasional Dahmer, Bundy, or Manson, but we wouldn't know their names. We wouldn't need to. I wish I didn't. I'm not saying the motivations of those particular three were the same as this Virginia Tech scum's. However, I am saying that the VT killer most likely knew THEIR names. I haven't read or heard that fact anywhere, but I'm certain that somewhere in the brain cells of deranged individuals, the names of infamous killers who have come before are likely stored in about the same location "sane" people keep their fantasy leagues or vacation plans.

Society--students, scientists and psychologists can still study the backgrounds and lives of these killers as they try to understand and preempt the creation of the next mass-murderer. They just don't need to do it with their real name.

It is clear that through the VT killer's manipulation of the media he had the road to infamy all figured out. Since that's what makes a tiny fraction of the truly disturbed among us tick, that is precisely what needs to be completely taken away if we ever decide we've had enough of this sickening behavior.

In the meantime, we'll all just keep seeing even more sickos get their 15 minutes--more of them and more often--until we are ultimately forced to do something substantive about it.

If we ever really want to stop a gunman, it better start long before he has the gun in his hands. [/endofmyrant]

Pretty good points, and I agree with a lot of it, especially the media putting crap on the news and people eating it up.

But at the same time, people like Lizzie Borden (axed stepmom and dad) Ed Gein (basis for Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs) and the guys from "In Cold Blood" (can't remember their names) still existed long before CNN and the constant media.

There will ALWAYS be sick, demented people who commit horrible acts.

[Jer]

The thing is, a few days after Ed Gien was arrested you didn't see a bunch of other guys skinning women who reminded them of thier moms. If the Ed Gien thing would've happened today, I'm sure some media outlets would have no problem showing the grotesque pictures of the interior of his house. I have no objection to the media reporting news (like the VT massacre), but I fail to see how airing the murderer's self-filmed psycho-rant video tape accomplishes anything but giving other potential mass murderers a hero they can identify with. I don't have a problem with names being published, but NBC gave this guy exactly what he wanted by airing his tape. Whoever made the decision at NBC should at least be charged with endangering public safety.

[Endlessseason]

For sure, and I'm not talking about the John Wayne Gacy's or Dahmer's of the world who would have preferred to remain completely anonymous. Nothing will stop those types. That's why my rant specifically focuses on those like this VT killer who, when he reached his breaking point, coldly and calculatingly decided to go out with a sick and twisted kind of infamy because he knew of the attention it would get.

My argument is, if this particular killer had grown up his entire life knowing that mass-murderers in this world get zero attention, and, in fact, get blotted out of existence as if they had never lived--no messages, no epitaph, no memory of them at all, the idea of making his own live, murderous, outrageous, narcissistic exit from this life may have never germinated in him. Simply that.

Since we can't predict who the next ones will be, we have to, as a society, not reward abhorrent behavior with the attention that the sick fringe of society gravitates towards.

[StoneCold]

The thing is, a few days after Ed Gien was arrested you didn't see a bunch of other guys skinning women who reminded them of thier moms. If the Ed Gien thing would've happened today, I'm sure some media outlets would have no problem showing the grotesque pictures of the interior of his house. I have no objection to the media reporting news (like the VT massacre), but I fail to see how airing the murderer's self-filmed psycho-rant video tape accomplishes anything but giving other potential mass murderers a hero they can identify with. I don't have a problem with names being published, but NBC gave this guy exactly what he wanted by airing his tape. Whoever made the decision at NBC should at least be charged with endangering public safety.

For sure, and I'm not talking about the John Wayne Gacy's or Dahmer's of the world who would have preferred to remain completely anonymous. Nothing will stop those types. That's why my rant specifically focuses on those like this VT killer who, when he reached his breaking point, coldly and calculatingly decided to go out with a sick and twisted kind of infamy because he knew of the attention it would get.

My argument is, if this particular killer had grown up his entire life knowing that mass-murderers in this world get zero attention, and, in fact, get blotted out of existence as if they had never lived--no messages, no epitaph, no memory of them at all, the idea of making his own live, murderous, outrageous, narcissistic exit from this life may have never germinated in him. Simply that.

Since we can't predict who the next ones will be, we have to, as a society, not reward abhorrent behavior with the attention that the sick fringe of society gravitates towards.

Ahhhhh, I see the points and I agree.

[Jer]

Getting back to the original topic - to those who feel that handguns in the hands of law-abiding citizens is not a good way to stop a gunman - what's a better solution? Lay on the ground and hope he runs out of ammo before he gets to you? Hope your aura of peacefulness deflects the bullets? Bullet-proof Che Guavara t-shirts?

[snowbandit]

I have mixed feelings about personal gun protection. I think you should have the right to own a gun, but their should still be more restrictions on who is allowed to own and handle a gun. For example I think that even if you haven't broken a law before, but have a record of current or previous mental health issues then you shouldn't be allowed to have a gun.

[truckeelocal]

Getting back to the original topic - to those who feel that handguns in the hands of law-abiding citizens is not a good way to stop a gunman - what's a better solution? Lay on the ground and hope he runs out of ammo before he gets to you? Hope your aura of peacefulness deflects the bullets? Bullet-proof Che Guavara t-shirts?

There are three potential solutions

1. Take guns out of the hands of non-lawabiding citizens - this likely means taking them out of the hands of law abiding citizens. This is the aggressive gun contol option.
2. Add more guns and more situations where guns are available. This will reduce gun crime according to the gun advocates.
3. Create fear and allow any law abiding citizen to acquire a gun for protection but limit their ability to access guns in certain situations. This also allows criminals free access to guns (literally in most cases). This is the 'do nothing different' option which is costing 12,000 US firearm homicides per year and the occasional school massacre.

[Mcwop]

There are three potential solutions

1. Take guns out of the hands of non-lawabiding citizens - this likely means taking them out of the hands of law abiding citizens. This is the aggressive gun contol option.
2. Add more guns and more situations where guns are available. This will reduce gun crime according to the gun advocates.
3. Create fear and allow any law abiding citizen to acquire a gun for protection but limit their ability to access guns in certain situations. This also allows criminals free access to guns (literally in most cases). This is the 'do nothing different' option which is costing 12,000 US firearm homicides per year and the occasional school massacre.

Like this?

When Odighizuwa exited the building where the shooting took place, he was approached by two students with personal firearms.[5]

At the first sound of gunfire, fellow students Tracy Bridges and Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to fetch their personally-owned firearms.[6] Gross, a police officer with the Grifton Police Department in his home state of North Carolina, retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armour.[7] Bridges pulled his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevy Tahoe. As Bridges later told the Richmond Times Dispatch, he was prepared to shoot to kill.[8]

Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun.[9] Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students, including Ted Besen and Todd Ross.[10]

[Jer]

There are three potential solutions

1. Take guns out of the hands of non-lawabiding citizens - this likely means taking them out of the hands of law abiding citizens. This is the aggressive gun contol option.
2. Add more guns and more situations where guns are available. This will reduce gun crime according to the gun advocates.
3. Create fear and allow any law abiding citizen to acquire a gun for protection but limit their ability to access guns in certain situations. This also allows criminals free access to guns (literally in most cases). This is the 'do nothing different' option which is costing 12,000 US firearm homicides per year and the occasional school massacre.

I still like the bullet-proof Che t-shirt option. Also - how's about only allowing gun owners to buy 25 rounds of ammo per year? That way you can always hope you're murder victim #26. It would also mean that most gun owners would be so badly out of practice that they probably wouldn't hit you.

I don't think the "do nothing" (about current gun laws) option is causing 12,000 firearm homocides per year. I think criminals are doing that.

[bklyn]

If the Ed Gien thing would've happened today, I'm sure some media outlets would have no problem showing the grotesque pictures of the interior of his house...

You honestly think that did not happen after Gein's crimes were revealed?
Back then, it was much easier to make people disappear without a trace, and Gein's psychosis was very specialized and peculiar to his life circumstances. Maybe you need to research that case a bit more before you make those statements.

After all...
They did use him as inspiration for the movie Psycho and the Buffalo Bill character in Silence of the Lambs.
The car he used to transport his victims was used as an attraction in county fairs and billed as "Eddie Gein's Ghoul Car".

Soon after Eddie was sentenced to the mental institution, his farm went up for auction along with some of his other belongings.

Thousands of curiosity seekers diverged on the small town to see what possessions of Eddie's would be auctioned. Some of the things to be auctioned off were his car, furniture and musical instruments. The company that handled the business of selling Eddie's goods planned to charge a fee of fifty cents to look at Eddie's property. The citizens of Plainfield were outraged. They believed Eddie's home was quickly becoming a "museum for the morbid" and the town demanded something be done to put it to an end.

(Eventually someone in town burned down his house to put an end to the curiosity seekers. The arson case was never solved.)

He got plenty of attention and much more than his share of "15 minutes" of fame. In some ways his actions are even more glorified and entrenched in popular culture.

Personally I was, and still am, appalled at the hordes of "grief tourists" that gather at the WTC on a daily basis and purchase souvenir booklets with every awful detail of that day depicted including pictures of people jumping to their deaths. Yet, they come every single day. This is a fundamental part of human nature, akin to slowing down and staring at car accidents. This impulse is not new, nor a sign of a decline in modern morals.

NBC aired Cho's package because they knew it would boost ratings and all the other networks made the same decision. They only felt a backlash because they overplayed their hand, going 24/7 with it; and, one girl's father very eloquently advocated for the coverage to stop.

[Jer]

You honestly think that did not happen after Gein's crimes were revealed?
Back then, it was much easier to make people disappear without a trace, and Gein's psychosis was very specialized and peculiar to his life circumstances. Maybe you need to research that case a bit more before you make those statements.

After all...
They did use him as inspiration for the movie Psycho and the Buffalo Bill character in Silence of the Lambs.
The car he used to transport his victims was used as an attraction in county fairs and billed as "Eddie Gein's Ghoul Car".



(Eventually someone in town burned down his house to put an end to the curiosity seekers. The arson case was never solved.)

He got plenty of attention and much more than his share of "15 minutes" of fame. In some ways his actions are even more glorified and entrenched in popular culture.

The media reported the Ed Gien crime, some in a sensationalistic way. But none of them showed pictures of Bernice Worden's gutted body or Ed's skin suits. To my knowledge, no news company published his detailed accounts of his crimes. Of course, his crimes were detailed years later by true crime authors, but not by news agencies. His "death car" was paraded around, but not by news agencies. I lived most of my life about 90 minutes from Plainfield, so I know many people who remember first hand the whole Ed Gien freakshow. None of them remember any immediate sensationalism on the part of the media. I agree that his crimes are glorified and entrenched in pop culture, but that's due almost entirely to the ultra-freaky nature of his crimes, not news media hype.

[Free Range Lobster]

Back then, it was much easier to make people disappear without a trace

Gitmo.

12

[truckeelocal]

I still like the bullet-proof Che t-shirt option. Also - how's about only allowing gun owners to buy 25 rounds of ammo per year? That way you can always hope you're murder victim #26. It would also mean that most gun owners would be so badly out of practice that they probably wouldn't hit you.

I don't think the "do nothing" (about current gun laws) option is causing 12,000 firearm homocides per year. I think criminals are doing that.

Finally a constructive suggestion from the gun advocates. Bullet control, not gun control. Then again bullets don't kill people, people do. And there's always eBay.

[summit]

Finally a constructive suggestion from the gun advocates. Bullet control, not gun control. Then again bullets don't kill people, people do. And there's always eBay.

shhh nobody tell him about reloading... his day will be ruined

[MeatPuppet]

No, 12 THOUSAND firearm homicides, not 12 MILLION - see, no problem. But my point is that gun advocates have circled the wagons. No extra gun controls.

Ahh! Yes, that makes more sense. In the future I'll drink coffee first, then post. Thanks.

If legislation were introduced that makes sense, I suspect you would find the wagons are not so tightly circled as you might think. As it is, we get legislation that goes after things like muzzle brakes, barrel shrouds, Military-style appearance, and pistol grips on rifles. They have nothing to do with crime. This is pandering to the gun haters, and puts meaningless restrictions on law abiding citizens, nothing more. Of course we are going to oppose it.