The Official Gun Control Debate thread

[Pow4Brains]

I was waiting for someone to throw this moron into the thread.

Had to be done. Seems like summer must be here early given the threads that are consuming the 1st page

[Nitro]

Have I been to Peru!

HAAA!!! (I have a business there, I go three times a year, at least. I will be there next week.)
BTW, Peru isn't run by the Cartels, Colombia is. Get your facts straight. In fact, Garcia is being protested throughout the country right now due to his Coca eradication efforts.

http://www.livinginperu.com/news-360...nst-government

Yes, Peru has it's problems, but random gun fatalities is NOT one of them, and this is a country with a VERY violent recent past.
That is my point. Less access, less fatalities, pure and simple.

Edit: This coming trip will be my thirteenth in four years. I spend more time there than I do with my family back east!

Fair enough. My experiences with Peru go back to 1997. I cannot comment on the current political climate there.

[rideit]

Not to totally threadjack, but Peru is currently the 'economic miracle' of South America. The stock market is going off, it is very stable and safe, and there is a strong creation of a new middle class.
Garcia is working extremely hard to right an earlier failed legacy, and it seems to be working.
And not too many gun nuts running around.
Sendero Luminoso is dead, except for a few freaks that use it's name to rationalize Coca-related turf wars.

Interesting times down there currently!

[P_McPoser]

That's just because I haven't been transferred there....yet. j/k

[powder11]

would you rather they were pushed out of windows? - Archie Bunker

the culture of violence in america is disturbing to those outside looking in, but people in places like peru still get murdered or disappear and dont enjoy much personal freedom from the government. not many other countries have to deal with such a large diverse population of people who have the freedom to pretty much do what they please. its what makes america unique. people get the freedom to fuck up if they want and then have to pay the price if they do. its your choice; like it or lump it. I dont have guns or really associate with people who do and its kept me out of trouble so far. I probably have a bigger chance of being shot in whistler village

[P_McPoser]

would you rather they were pushed out of windows? - Archie Bunker

the culture of violence in america is disturbing to those outside looking in, but people in places like peru still get murdered or disappear and dont enjoy much personal freedom from the government. not many other countries have to deal with such a large diverse population of people who have the freedom to pretty much do what they please. its what makes america unique. people get the freedom to fuck up if they want and then have to pay the price if they do. its your choice; like it or lump it. I dont have guns or really associate with people who do and its kept me out of trouble so far. I probably have a bigger chance of being shot in whistler village

By pakis?

[rideit]

That is a good point, P11, I was simply using that stats that I know about gun control in Peru as an example of a country that lost 80,000 to 'class' violence a few years ago, yet now have an extremely low 'random' murder rate. I would love to see some stats from Norway, Denmark, Holland, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, Japan, Thailand, etc...

[AsheanMT]

I'm in montana so you can guess how we feel about guns up here. We got lots of em and everyone I meet is VERY responsible with their firearms. I think its very important to distinguish the difference between owning and using a firearm properly and the nut case fucks who use them to kill innocent people. We have very easy to obtain concealed weapons permits up here and I guarantee that at the UofM Missoula their are a few guns walking around. Guns are not the problem, violent crazy fucks are the problem.

[rideit]

One could argue that a culture of gun worship could possibly be a contributing factor in the creation of so many 'violent crazy fucks'.

I enjoy sqeezing off a round or two, and totally have no issue with hunting, but guns are simply too prevalant in the US for our own good, IMO.

[Jer]

I think ski areas are too prevalent in the US for our own good.

[hemas]

I'm in montana so you can guess how we feel about guns up here. We got lots of em and everyone I meet is VERY responsible with their firearms. I think its very important to distinguish the difference between owning and using a firearm properly and the nut case fucks who use them to kill innocent people. We have very easy to obtain concealed weapons permits up here and I guarantee that at the UofM Missoula their are a few guns walking around. Guns are not the problem, violent crazy fucks are the problem.

True, and in order to obtain a firearm, filling out a few more papers and waiting a longer quarantine time, plus even giving a reasonable reason to own such gun (ie. 9mm semiautomatic isn't the sharpest tool for duck hunting, that's why you have shotguns) SHOULD NOT REALLY BOTHER THE RESPONSIBLE PEEPS...

But it would most likely cut down the percentage that "instable" peeps want guns just for fun.

Oh, and this is mostly for handguns (revolvers & pistols), 'cause as stated they are the weapons used in majority of crimes...

[waxman]

token great white northerner chiming in...no one "needs" anything outside of shelter/fire/procreation
i own guns, after having jumped through all the various hoops that the gov't requires
i have guns for the same reason that i have skis/bikes/frisbees because i enjoy the hell out of them....and EVERYONE i have taken shooting has as well...
i can go on the web right now and find a way to make explosives/nerve gas/IEDs etc, yet i don't, why because i am not a psycho

and you are going to love this:
guns don't kill people abortion clinics do....

[rideit]

Abortion clinics reduce the amount of unwanted children, who often turn into 'sick violent fucks'.
So, logic would dictate that abortion clinics kill school shooters.

[Phall]

good point.
I have enjoyed shooting occaisonally for numerous years and have considered purchasing a shotgun for trap/skeet and possibly some hunting in the near future. guns really aren't the problem in society. It relies more on the media and how visable and prominent guns are.

[powder11]

That is a good point, P11, I was simply using that stats that I know about gun control in Peru as an example of a country that lost 80,000 to 'class' violence a few years ago, yet now have an extremely low 'random' murder rate. I would love to see some stats from Norway, Denmark, Holland, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, Japan, Thailand, etc...

last year in canada, some physco with a legally registered hunting rifle went on a rampage at a university in montreal and killed a bunch of students. recently an innocent bystander was shot and killed here in whistler village. I hear much more bizarre type murders up here on the news. people are beaten to death, strangled, stabbed, chopped up and fed to pigs or just plain disappear. does the fact that someone is killed by a gun somehow make it worse?

[hemas]

guns really aren't the problem in society.

Yes and no... The problem is that wacko's have these guns so readily available...

A bit more red tape and mebbe even some effort (a waiver form your shooting club or a small hunters exam), would pretty much keep most of the wacko-jobs from getting a gun... Especially when they are young kids that are emo, they don't have a fully stacked handgun or two in the sock-drawer.

[lemon boy]

Yes and no... The problem is that wacko's have these guns so readily available...

A bit more red tape and mebbe even some effort (a waiver form your shooting club or a small hunters exam), would pretty much keep most of the wacko-jobs from getting a gun... Especially when they are young kids that are emo, they don't have a fully stacked handgun or two in the sock-drawer.

Ummmmm EMO kids already can't own handguns. Not b/c they're EMO (although it's a good reason) but because they're...ta da! KIDS!

[hemas]

Ummmmm EMO kids already can't own handguns. Not b/c they're EMO (although it's a good reason) but because they're...ta da! KIDS!

The guy was a student in Va... No?

Student is still a kid... Heck, most of the times, I'm still a kid... And I'm almost certain I'm older than the guy in Va...

So, just for LB... Kid = under 30.

[Spats]

The UK is experiencing a massive increase in gun violence despite tougher and tougher anti-gun laws, the most recent being a total handgun ban enacted in 1997.

All numbers from the official statistics:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb0206.pdf

-The number of firearm crimes involving any type of injury has more than doubled from 1998/1999 to 2004/05: from 2,378 to 5,358.

-The number of firearm crimes 1) involving a real firearm and 2) resulting in serious injury or death has also more than doubled in that time: from 211 to 487.

-During that same time period, violent crimes with guns have more than tripled, from ~3,000 to ~10,000; criminal damage with guns has nearly doubled, from ~6,000 to ~10,000; burglary and robbery are roughly the same, having increased and then decreased.

This is exactly what you'd expect when the law-abiding people are all disarmed...criminals know that having a gun lets you do anything you want.

Another interesting statistic: "...Imitation weapon offences, up 55 per cent to 3,333." When no one has a real gun, all you need is a fake one, because there's no one to call your bluff and most people can't tell the difference!

[Lloyd Braun]

my Dad's idea has always been:

give everyone over 21 a gun....problem solves itself.


I don't agree but it does make you think

[Spats]

True, and in order to obtain a firearm, filling out a few more papers and waiting a longer quarantine time, plus even giving a reasonable reason to own such gun (ie. 9mm semiautomatic isn't the sharpest tool for duck hunting, that's why you have shotguns) SHOULD NOT REALLY BOTHER THE RESPONSIBLE PEEPS...

But it would most likely cut down the percentage that "instable" peeps want guns just for fun.

False.

More official government statistics:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

"According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

* a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
* a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
* family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%"

This should be common sense: criminals get their guns illegally, so restrictions on gun ownership only affect non-criminals.

[TeleHoar]

For a look at what can happen to gun rights just look at what has happened to smoker's rights.

Bit by bit smoking has become so vilified that they have no problem taxing and legislating it to the point that some cities are banning it alltogether, indoors and out, even in your own car.

This is not a hijack to a smoking argument, but just an example how our rights can be whittled away to nothing, guns will be next...just watch.

[rideit]

And how many lives are going to be saved or improved as a result of these draconian measures towards smoking?

One word: MILLIONS.

[telepariah]

It is already much easier to get an illegal gun than a concealed weapon permit. I am all for legislation to make it tough to get legal weapons, but it does nothing about the illegal weapons that are already in circulation. That's just reality.

A guy left a registered handgun in his lunchbox under a table in the cafeteria where I work last week. If security hadn't found it, what do you suppose would have happened to it? I spoke to several people who said they would have either taken it for themselves or sold it. The guy got canned, by the way -- zero tolerance in the workplace. But if he had been responsible with it in the first place, nothing would have happened. What is my point, if I have one? Only that gun laws will not stop the gun violence in the US... unfortunately.

[hemas]

False.

More official government statistics:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

"According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

* a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
* a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
* family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%"

Might be, at least in the case of States. As you have guns so readily available... and no law will fix that problem (as you already stated, criminals would not give their guns away... while the nice peeps would).

But most likely such red tape, would lessen the changes of getting a gun (family, friends, a street buy)... Less guns "roaming around", the more PITA it would be to get one.