https://gofund.me/33c6e6ed
put your money where your mouth is and support these trollers and their families
arguing about this online ain't worth shit if they can't put food on the table
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https://gofund.me/33c6e6ed
put your money where your mouth is and support these trollers and their families
arguing about this online ain't worth shit if they can't put food on the table
Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk
Sorry, but Fuck them. Take care of yourself. Look at some of the crazy shit going on. Unnamed resort closed cause rich, swimging dicks I may know can lose 10 mm like a pair of golf clubs
Why would any person ever want to ski with you when this is what you’re about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
Sounds like it's time for some H1B types to be brought in by VR.
Congrats Altacoup! Glad to hear you are moving on!
If ski areas want to continue to recruit valuable / knowledgeable people then they need to start paying people. Wages in the ski industry are laughable compared to what people shell out to participate in this sport.
The best part is that the ski industry (namely, Vail) put themselves in this position. By creating a product like the Epic Pass, they drastically reduced the cost of a season pass so that many people left the ski industry because they didn't need to work at a ski resort to get a pass to ski all year.
https://ksltv.com/721678/park-city-mountain-Quote:
Originally Posted by RegCT
resorts-vp-coo-speaks-about-ongoing-strike-as-it-reaches-day-4/
most recent report - nothing new.;
There is a National Ski Patrol ( Association) that is currently trying to redefine itself vvv under it's current COO Stephanie Cox -
https://coloradosun.com/2024/12/25/s...al-ski-patrol/
I wish StephanieCox well --
traditionally, NSP has been a 'dues - supported' organization ;
I have not reviewed the Policies recently, but during the time I studied the Policies over more than two decades, the Professional Division did not pay dues ;
while I do not speak to/for the current NSP administration, from my perspective, on at-least a Regional level the organization 'partners' with the Ski Areas Association to set operational protocols.
I have nothing but respect for the ( grizzled, veteran) patrollers who added snow safety skills and duties to their responsibilities and were able to build a career in Skiing -
my support for the patroller(s) is in my earlier posts.
This saga continues /
Good luck.
( skiJ )
Buzz, I’m telling the guy to do what’s best for him and his family and that a corp does not care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
I know you agree with that.
On topic, patrol is a first responder job. Should be treated and respected as such. We should start a go fund to keep them in beer.
One of the better posts of this thread. Ski areas are finding out that even unskilled labor actually will cost them money and the skilled positions will cost even more. Was chatting with a buddy on the Union BSSP yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by skysos
3 days a week is now considered FT along with the FT benefits package (not FT YR). When she worked for me I was struggling to pay her $15.00 an hour (10 years ago), she is now pulling in $28.00.
And when you are charging $ 200.00-300.00 for a day pass the consumer will have very little sympathy.
CWA= Communication Workers of America. If memory serve me correctly, the original Canyons union was affiliated with the Maritime industry unions.
https://ski-patrol.net/ski-patrol-un...-latest-trend/
https://www.deseret.com/2000/11/8/19...ely-to-spread/
https://www.saminfo.com/archives/202...-of-the-unions
Attachment 508848
^ as it should be.
Abject failure on Vail's leadership from a biz standpoint to let it get to this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Stokes
I continue to find it fucking hilarious that they (VR) are so bad at this that you have union success for primarily entry-level semi-skilled seasonal workers. (That is what most first and second years are at most mountains). These are not plumbers, electricians, machinists, or even structural fire fighters. This is closer to flight attendants, except their union rewards the shit out of seniority while the juniors make nothing with itinerant work and poverty income despite a nominally high hourly.
I find it very sad when I hear that the unions are not producing for the skilled and experienced types. This is fucking dumb because union or not, the attrition on those junior patrollers is going to be huge because $23/hr isn't going to fix the seasonal component of the job, the housing situation, nor the young/nomadic/impulsive nature of the workforce and mountain communities.
So if the union isn't fixing shit so people can stick around, and isn't fixing shit FOR the people who stick around, then what the fuck are they doing other than making a bunch of noise?
From what I have seen, that is not the case. Mid-level patrollers at the local hill are making high 20s to mid 30s.Quote:
I find it very sad when I hear that the unions are not producing for the skilled and experienced types.
How much Is a 1st or 2nd year patroller worth in your opinion?Quote:
This is fucking dumb because union or not, the attrition on those junior patrollers is going to be huge because $23/hr isn't going to fix the seasonal component of the job, the housing situation, nor the young/nomadic/impulsive nature of the workforce and mountain communities.
1st year? About the same as you pay any other entry level mountain employee that doesn't technically need a high school diploma. Why? Because unlike a hospitality, F&B, or a liftie, most places patrol applicants will line up out the door to apply because of the nature of the job, the perceived status, and the perks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
You are competing for entry level employees, and you get to select for certain qualities (skiing, ethic, fitness) via job perks, which there are many for patrol. That is why people line up. That's why some people pay for their own training (EMT) so they are more competitive applicants. That is why people volly. People don't volly for F&B. You are going to invest in OTJ training for the 1st and 2nd years at a higher cost and they are gonna have high attrition/low return fairly independent of pay because it is hard to live in the mountains and it is a seasonal job and the median personality that patrols is going to "ooh shiny" onto another thing in life (that's my personality too).
It doesn't matter compensationwise that they do socially laudable work like helping people with hurt knees. That's actually a perk that attracts enthusiastic and already trained applicants. That's why mountain medical professionals will volly patrol, because they'd like to get the varierty/adrenaline/thrill/perk of doing some on mountain medical care. But most places, new patrollers are training, putting up rope, putting in fence, retrieving dropped items, side stepping, putting up boo, moving pads, and running rigs. If they are lucky enough to throw a bomb, that is a training investment and a huge perk for the patroller.
This is why I compare new patrollers to to flight attendants, another entry level glamour job with huge perks, low salary, unstable living conditions, high turnover, and applicants line up out the door.
^^^ Hmmn, I guess my perception of all this is quite tainted by my local patrol. CB doesn't have volunteer patrol. Everyone has an EMT at a minimum. It's one of the big reasons (along with pay) that I've never really considered it- it's a pretty big time and money commitment. So yeah, I do think they should get paid quite a bit more than a liftie.
You're absolutely right about the supply and demand side of it though. People are willing to patrol as long as they get to ski some pow
I haven't been keeping up with this, but I looked at a recent article that said what the patrollers were asking for and then I saw how much PCMR charges for day tickets and Vail Resorts can suck a fart out of my asshole.
EMT is a low commitment. It's typically 4 months of mostly evening classes (140-210 hours) and there are compressed and hybrid courses people do to bang it out in a month (like I did) or less. EMT, though often taught at a community college, is a vocational cert that is offered to highschoolers and the text is at an 7th/8th grade level. It is a really fun course that students genuinely enjoy, especially many of the personality types attracted to EMS who might have HATED typical school/college (me for example). It's novel, engaging, andrenaline enducing, socially laudable, and offers a large scope for minimal investment.
EMTs are starting at $13-18 an hour even in high cost areas and in Denver to start on IFT ambulances, event work, and wheelchair/dialysis vans (undesirable gigs with night shifts). And those jobs require 21+, a clean driving record, and ongoing drug tests. They could make more money as an uber driver, most likely. With experience they could get into an ER and make 18-22/hr starting as a tech. The local community colleges and votech programs will pop out new batches of EMTs 3+ times a years to replace the attrition as people leave for more lucrative jobs like grocery checkout worker or go back to school.
CB is interesting because, from the patrollers I know, despite the EMT requirement, they have historically had such an enthusiastic applicant pool that they actually start people as part timers and you have to work/prove your way into full time, whereas other patrols won't let you go part time until you have a few years in. Now that might be prepandemic/preVR beta...
Have you ever been a ski patrolman?
I would disagree, at least locally. Gunnison Valley Hospital kinda sorta occasionally maybe offers EMT classes. So more realistically, you have to leave town to do it. The closest place is probably the Montrose-Delta vocational school, so over 2 hours away each way in the summer, more than that in winter. 18 weeks, 300 hours, over $3K plus testing fees. That doesn't feel low commitment to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
Anyway, back on topic. Vail keeps saying that they've raised patroller's wages a bunch over the last few years, but they raised all their wages to at least $20/hr, when they were having staffing issues during/right after Covid. I think even a first year patroller deserves more than a buck or two more than a liftie or a fry cook. Or first year instructors that definitely make more when you count tips.
Last I heard - a year or two ago - EMT training at the community college was over $1000, class+books+everything. The patrol I worked on was all EMT. In 2006, I paid maybe $150 to get certified.
For people making patrol wages, EMT training of >$1000 isn’t exactly low commitment. Then there’s CEs etc.
200 hours spread over 4 months or quitting your job to bang it out in 1 month sounds like the opposite of "low commitment" to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
To our guests who are planning a trip later in the season, I am working each and every day to ensure Park City
Mountain delivers the world-class experience you expect.
Thank you,
Deirdra
Talk is cheap. Who, in their right mind, would visit Park City this season? Well, except those joining us for the beloved Film Festival. It seems to me that management is not coming close to "working each and every day to ensure Park City
Mountain delivers the world-class experience you expect". I guess that this is the year where non-refundable lodging and lift tickets/passes has meaning to people in a real, significant way. At this point, although I have skied 8-9 days on the Canyons ribbon this season, I would gladly accept a 50% refund on my EPIC pass. We all know that ain't happening. I'm sure that others feel the same way. Oh well, it is going to be interesting to see how this will affect next year's EPIC sales. They won't get my $$$. PCMR will definitely lose its standing as a top 15 resort, which is very important to management. This will be well deserved.
guys - I am not sure where some of the numbers come from, and I will try to avoid an opinion about level of commitment -
my friend, who is a patroller and was an EMT first responder for his community for 49 ( forty-nine ) years, went through the EMT course every-other year, three hours, twice weekly for three months or four months ; their goal was eighty hours of training ;
They had to pass the National Registry exam, and they had to complete the training every other year to remain certified/ registered.
( commuting for training is part of the Time commitment, but I can't include it as part of the training )
tgr forums may not be the place for it ( - and then again it may be as good a place for it as any - ), and it certainly does Not fit in a thread about job wages, but
the reason I have stuck with patrolling for decades is the ( fellowship. brotherhood . it is more than camaraderie - ) I found with fellow dedicated patrollers -
'Fun doesn't pay the rent ', but when
one is going to be Out, sometimes in brutally-Cold, Windy! conditions, I hope it is more than just A job.
I don't see any new updates on negotiations -
I apologize for the thread drift.
( skiJ )
You are confusedQuote:
my friend, who is a patroller and was an EMT first responder for his community for 49 ( forty-nine ) years, went through the EMT course every-other year, three hours, twice weekly for three months or four months ; their goal was eighty hours of training ;
I am for former 20 year National Registry EMT. When you are certified that is it. There is no more testing unless you choose to test rather than provide CE hrs for re-certification. There is a requirement to be able to document 40 hrs of Continuing Education for every 2 year cycle.Quote:
They had to pass the National Registry exam, and they had to complete the training every other year to remain certified/ registered.
( commuting for training is part of the Time commitment, but I can't include it as part of the training )
OrQuote:
The EMT National Continued Competency Program (NCCP) requires a total of 40 credits of continuing education to recertify. The model requires continuing education in three components: (1) a national component, (2) a local/state component, and (3) an individual component.
Why any sane person would opt for testing VS CE is beyond me.Quote:
This option enables you to demonstrate continued competency without documenting continuing education.
Login to your National Registry account. Complete a Recertification By Examination application and pay the examination fee.
After 24-48 hours, login to your National Registry account and print your Authorization to Test (ATT) letter. Follow the directions in the letter to schedule your examination.
You may make one attempt to take and pass the examination between April 1 (one year prior to your current expiration date) and March 31 (your expiration date).
I think this is why there's some disagreement on what unions are and are not doing for patrols. As far as I know, the pay schedule you listed is quite high compared to that of VR unions. Out of curiosity, did you get figures on what a senior-level patroller is considered and what their pay is (assuming this is BSSP)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
Well said. I don't have blind faith in the unions, but we got here by poor management by management at multiple levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
Also, it's hard to ask your question without getting dog piled by the solidarity crowd, even though I/we/literally everyone also want to see higher wages. It deserves a real answer.
Re: the EMT time commitment - There are now hybrid and accelerated courses. One of my peers took a two week version. When I took mine it was 3-4 hours/night, three days/week, and free. It was insanely easy. Perhaps the unions should pay for it...
I'd imagine the clock is ticking for Deirdra Walsh and that she'll meet a similar fate as Tom Pettigrew (former Stevens Pass VP).
For the union folks out there - Is there a legal or practical reason that all ski patrols aren't part of the same union to enhance their bargaining power? I don't know shit about unions and am genuinely curious.
I am going off of what ex Moonlight employees tell me, maybe accurate, maybe not.Quote:
Out of curiosity, did you get figures on what a senior-level patroller is considered and what their pay is (assuming this is BSSP)?
If you contact them I am certain they will share their pay scale and benefits package information. I can PM you the contacts if you like.
Clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
I was trying to comment to the claims that EMT training is 200hours to 300hours ;
The National Registry Exam has to be passed Once to be [EMT -National Registry ] ;
they were Not taking the exam every other year, And/but the bi-annual training was the way that group maintained their competence, And built their teamwork ( and that is important in EMS situations ) .
as others have mentioned, there are now a variety of methods with which the training can be delivered / received ;
My point was to offer a specific example that it doesn't have to be a 200hour or 300hour program.
My apology, Bunion.
skiJ
buddy of mine on Breck ski patrol makes $29/hr after 5 years, just for sake of info.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr walker
Park City wouldn't have this problem if they just stuck to hiring trust funders for ski patrol. Vail Mountain has this figured out.
How many hours do patrollers work a week?Quote:
Originally Posted by bamboocoreONLY
He works 4 days, can be up to 10 hours or so a day I believe. Some work the same but 5 days a week, so they do get some overtime.Quote:
Originally Posted by The SnowShow
Depends on the patrol... some will put you through OEC (NSP's patrol specific EMT-light)... some patrols will then pay for your EMT.
Some applicants get their EMT on their own to be more competitive, or to open up other job opportunities, like for summer outdoor industry/ed jobs or future career moves to hospital/medic/fire/nursing/PA etc. I know plenty of docs, PAs, and nurses who started out patrolling.
Some patrols require EMT to apply.
Most folks taking EMT at community will qualify for financial aid... making patroller wages you should be getting federal grants plus there are usually state and local grants and scholarships. Unless they are younger folks who have well off parents who disqualify them grants, federal aid, and needs based scholarships... a very common situation in ski towns... for some reason.
Again, EMT is a vocational cert that highschoolers can take and most EMT jobs pay $1x/hr starting. I'm not saying that is ideal, but put that into the context vs ski patrol. I've been an EMT for a long time and I instruct EMTs, which I enjoy. The class is fun and exciting, and students go out and do great things.
We have folks saying that 150hrs + $1k (minus aid) for EMT is a big commitment. Everything is relative... compared to what? It is big compared to the nothing required to tell cars where to park? Sure, but you have Hutch wondering on the Socials why patrollers don't start making $35/hr RN pay... solidarity hyperbole I know. EMT is typically 150-180 hours. RN is collegiate and 3-5 years of full time year round coursework including prereqs, including typically 600-1200 hours of unpaid mandatory clinical training as part of school. This costs students 75-200K+ so that they can most likely start out as night shift.
There is a nursing shortage. There isn't a patroller shortage.
I know several new DPTs (doctorate in physical therapy) working full time outpatient who are just making $35/hr with all their student debt in high COL areas.
Shit! Even I got my WEMT one time. It wasn't super easy, but not that hard. It is surprising how little many Basic EMT's make but it is definitely an incentive to try to keep moving up the ladder I guess. I just wasn't really that into helping people, and glad that I learned it early in life. haha.
How about the fact that Vail Resorts has exclusively 100% volunteer patrol units at their Peak Resorts acquired hills in the Midwest? How is a mega corporation able to get away with having all volunteer, un-paid patrollers in the Midwest?
You can say, "because that's how it's always been", but it hasn't always been Vail Resorts, a publicly traded company, as the owner.
I think the ski patrol, just like ski school, should be paid at the Midwest ski resorts.
The thing about volunteers is that they are voluntary. If that is a working system, it is because people want to do it for perks, a pass, glamour, and proforms at $0/hr. Some jobs get people to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hott Butt Mud
Why is SAR 99.9% volunteer?
Why are many fire departments all or part volunteer? And ambulance services?
I remember my first EMT job was $7.89/hr two decades ago. And it was VERY competitive to get a 911 ambulance job as a new EMT. I had to work part time until a full time spot opened. Ski patrol had offered me more $ than ambo. I knew there was even better money at the grocery store, but guess which job was more fun (and traumatic)?
Supply and demand determines the price... and it is a bitch.
Thank you, spot on! And this is exactly what I mean when I say the unions have a messaging problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
"Highly valuable certifications!" Like what? EMT? lol. An explosives license? For the uninitiated: You watch some shots get thrown, take a written test, get some finger prints, and pay some money. Lift evac? This can be taught in one afternoon. Avalanche courses? Even the Pro courses are available to anyone with a pulse now.
What isn't properly teased out by the unions is how all of the above, over time, creates a valuable employee worth retaining.
If line patrollers/unions want nursing pay, then they should fix their messaging to justify it. PCSPA's Instragram is cringe worthy and a shining example of what not to do.
Oh man, that's a can of worms lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Hott Butt Mud
https://www.saminfo.com/news/sam-hea...iations-resume
today's report on SAM
( I don't see anything new -
Mrs. Walsh is Very measured in her comments. )
I think my EMT class cost around $800 in 2014. ~180 hours or whatever it was over 8 or 9 weeks. Then ~40 hours of CE each year to recert every two years. The CE was provided during refresher by my employer. Which was a great value. Plus whatever extra hours were offered throughout the season.
During my tenure, we worked 4-10 hour days with an option for a half day 5th day to do routes in the morning. I think I started at like $11/hour, then the following year the rookies were hired at $13/hour, and I was still making like $11.50, which I thought was funny. But then got my shit together over the next few years (started working FTYR) and I think I was making $25/hour when I quit patrolling in...2022?
It was a cool fucking job. I did it for the high fives and free booze, the adrenaline, the pow, and was never in it for the money. Patrollers are always lauded as heros, which is fun and feeds the ego and it is an important part of mountain operations, but I always laughed at that hero sentiment because I felt like I was just scamming the system to ski untracked pow at sunrise.
Really really good chapter in life but I'm glad I'm not going to grow old as a ski patroller.
The National Labor Relations Act is VERY restrictive of the company during negotiations. She legally is not allowed to say much.Quote:
Originally Posted by skiJ
Glad to hear your input. Skiing off the top today I am always amazed at what the BSSP does on a daily basis and do my best to thank them when I ski by.Quote:
Originally Posted by RegCT
I am not expecting Mrs. Walsh to comment to negotiations, ,,, but I believe customer dissatisfaction could be acknowledged [ shrug ]Quote:
Originally Posted by RegCT
You're comparing two things that are not equal. A 'For-Profit' business, versus a 'Non-Profit' organization.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit