PARK CITY (and all) SKI PATROLLERS DESERVE MORE.

[Woodsy]

CWA is trash. They are a virus. They have identified ski patrolling as a vulnerable industry they can exploit using minimal resources. They don't know anything about mountain sports or the ski industry. Their messaging is all boilerplate with no creativity or recognition of the individual needs of each patrol. Their tactics are predictable and insincere. They don't care about skiing. They are no better than VR.

I feel bad for patrollers caught up in it. There are better ways.

Not sure who CWA is, but my friend referenced a few times above is 2nd generation patrol and still instructs patrol and other canine S&R practitioners and does avy work across North America has been working to unionize patrol for decades.
Don't position this with outside forces bullshit.

Take your anti labor stance to polyass DBag

[Dshack89]

^^^^^
This. It isn’t just patrol. I’m an electrician at Alta and Saturday is my last day working there after 20+ years. The constant taking away of benefits with lower pay than my electricians license can fetch on the open market became too much. Final straw was they restricted my ski time even when all my work is done. I quit and got a $30k raise coming with a swing shift so now I can ski golf bike every day and have way more money. And it’s way harder to get a licensed electrician than a patroller. The entire ski industry wants their cake and to eat it to. Problem is they’ve got away with it for so long. Meanwhile a ticket at Alta was less than $40 bucks when I started. Today after taxes people were paying over $200.

It makes me sad to hear stories like yours, and the rumors about the reasons for Groms departure. I want my kids to enjoy the Alta that I fell in love with. But it seems like that is increasingly a fantasy.

It's a dumb analogy, but it feels similar to the trajectory of college sports w/ the transfer portal and NIL. Once everything is only about the almighty dollar, things slowly fall apart.

[Woodsy]

Oh man, Alta....
Most of us spent years skiing Alta when Onno was GM and he was a patroller & worker at heart.
No idea who new management is since I left town, but still independent and seem to get it.
Let's not paint them with Vails brush....

[RegCT]

Not sure who CWA is, but my friend referenced a few times above is 2nd generation patrol and still instructs patrol and other canine S&R practitioners and does avy work across North America has been working to unionize patrol for decades.
Don't position this with outside forces bullshit.

Take your anti labor stance to polyass DBag

Ok. Don't DBAG me if you don't know me. The NLRA and the NLRB IS poly-ass any way you cut it.

That aside, I didn't say I was anti-labor and I definitely didn't talk shit about your second generation dog handler friend. I said what I said about the CWA. If you don't know who CWA is, you need to DYOR and get back to me because I'm not going to junk up the thread educating you.

Someone mentioned earlier that it would be nice if there was a National Ski Patrol Association that could do this POLYASS work for the industry. That would be a good start. Too bad the industry can't get their shit together to make that happen. Best idea to come out of this thread.

[altacoup]

Nobody should feel sorry for me. I’m coming out way ahead. But Alta isn’t the place it used to be. They continue to advertise as if they’re a small family business. But they’re becoming more corporate every year. I’ll refrain from airing all the dirty laundry, but don’t be blinded into thinking Alta is any different than other ski areas. I really blame NSAA for homogenizing bad ideas at ski areas with their crappy conferences.

[tgapp]

https://gofund.me/33c6e6ed

put your money where your mouth is and support these trollers and their families

arguing about this online ain't worth shit if they can't put food on the table


Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk

[Cono Este]

Sorry, but Fuck them. Take care of yourself. Look at some of the crazy shit going on. Unnamed resort closed cause rich, swimging dicks I may know can lose 10 mm like a pair of golf clubs

[Buzzworthy]

Sorry, but Fuck them. Take care of yourself. Look at some of the crazy shit going on. Unnamed resort closed cause rich, swimging dicks I may know can lose 10 mm like a pair of golf clubs

Why would any person ever want to ski with you when this is what you’re about.

[Toadman]

Sounds like it's time for some H1B types to be brought in by VR.

[brutah]

Congrats Altacoup! Glad to hear you are moving on!

If ski areas want to continue to recruit valuable / knowledgeable people then they need to start paying people. Wages in the ski industry are laughable compared to what people shell out to participate in this sport.

The best part is that the ski industry (namely, Vail) put themselves in this position. By creating a product like the Epic Pass, they drastically reduced the cost of a season pass so that many people left the ski industry because they didn't need to work at a ski resort to get a pass to ski all year.

[skiJ]

Ok. Don't DBAG me if you don't know me. The NLRA and the NLRB IS poly-ass any way you cut it.

That aside, I didn't say I was anti-labor and I definitely didn't talk shit about your second generation dog handler friend. I said what I said about the CWA. If you don't know who CWA is, you need to DYOR and get back to me because I'm not going to junk up the thread educating you.

Someone mentioned earlier that it would be nice if there was a National Ski Patrol Association that could do this POLYASS work for the industry. That would be a good start. Too bad the industry can't get their shit together to make that happen. Best idea to come out of this thread.

https://ksltv.com/721678/park-city-mountain-
resorts-vp-coo-speaks-about-ongoing-strike-as-it-reaches-day-4/

most recent report - nothing new.;

There is a National Ski Patrol ( Association) that is currently trying to redefine itself vvv under it's current COO Stephanie Cox -

https://coloradosun.com/2024/12/25/s...al-ski-patrol/

I wish StephanieCox well --

traditionally, NSP has been a 'dues - supported' organization ;
I have not reviewed the Policies recently, but during the time I studied the Policies over more than two decades, the Professional Division did not pay dues ;
while I do not speak to/for the current NSP administration, from my perspective, on at-least a Regional level the organization 'partners' with the Ski Areas Association to set operational protocols.

I have nothing but respect for the ( grizzled, veteran) patrollers who added snow safety skills and duties to their responsibilities and were able to build a career in Skiing -

my support for the patroller(s) is in my earlier posts.

This saga continues /

Good luck.

( skiJ )

[Cono Este]

Why would any person ever want to ski with you when this is what you’re about.

Buzz, I’m telling the guy to do what’s best for him and his family and that a corp does not care.

I know you agree with that.

On topic, patrol is a first responder job. Should be treated and respected as such. We should start a go fund to keep them in beer.

[Bunion 2020]

This is the reckoning that has always been coming for ski resorts. The sources of cheap labor are drying up and paying folks $21 / hr for a skilled labor position that requires medical qualifications and a myriad of other snow safety skills isn't going to cut it anymore. This isn't just a Vail problem.

I have zero sympathy for Vail getting squeezed here. They just pissed off thousands of customers which probably cost them $millions in customer cred to save what amounts to almost nothing in actual annual cost. This is just dumb.

One of the better posts of this thread. Ski areas are finding out that even unskilled labor actually will cost them money and the skilled positions will cost even more. Was chatting with a buddy on the Union BSSP yesterday.

3 days a week is now considered FT along with the FT benefits package (not FT YR). When she worked for me I was struggling to pay her $15.00 an hour (10 years ago), she is now pulling in $28.00.

And when you are charging $ 200.00-300.00 for a day pass the consumer will have very little sympathy.

CWA= Communication Workers of America. If memory serve me correctly, the original Canyons union was affiliated with the Maritime industry unions.

https://ski-patrol.net/ski-patrol-un...-latest-trend/

https://www.deseret.com/2000/11/8/19...ely-to-spread/

https://www.saminfo.com/archives/202...-of-the-unions

[Meadow Skipper]

^ as it should be.

[summit]

Remember there are wayyyy more patrollers that work for Vail than just the park city guys and girls.

If they give the unionized patrollers $2ph then sure as hell the rest of the non unionized patrollers are gonna want it, and Vail won't want them to think about unionizing to get it.

Abject failure on Vail's leadership from a biz standpoint to let it get to this point.

I continue to find it fucking hilarious that they (VR) are so bad at this that you have union success for primarily entry-level semi-skilled seasonal workers. (That is what most first and second years are at most mountains). These are not plumbers, electricians, machinists, or even structural fire fighters. This is closer to flight attendants, except their union rewards the shit out of seniority while the juniors make nothing with itinerant work and poverty income despite a nominally high hourly.

I find it very sad when I hear that the unions are not producing for the skilled and experienced types. This is fucking dumb because union or not, the attrition on those junior patrollers is going to be huge because $23/hr isn't going to fix the seasonal component of the job, the housing situation, nor the young/nomadic/impulsive nature of the workforce and mountain communities.

So if the union isn't fixing shit so people can stick around, and isn't fixing shit FOR the people who stick around, then what the fuck are they doing other than making a bunch of noise?

[Bunion 2020]

I find it very sad when I hear that the unions are not producing for the skilled and experienced types.

From what I have seen, that is not the case. Mid-level patrollers at the local hill are making high 20s to mid 30s.

This is fucking dumb because union or not, the attrition on those junior patrollers is going to be huge because $23/hr isn't going to fix the seasonal component of the job, the housing situation, nor the young/nomadic/impulsive nature of the workforce and mountain communities.

How much Is a 1st or 2nd year patroller worth in your opinion?

[summit]

How much Is a 1st or 2nd year patroller worth in your opinion?

1st year? About the same as you pay any other entry level mountain employee that doesn't technically need a high school diploma. Why? Because unlike a hospitality, F&B, or a liftie, most places patrol applicants will line up out the door to apply because of the nature of the job, the perceived status, and the perks.

You are competing for entry level employees, and you get to select for certain qualities (skiing, ethic, fitness) via job perks, which there are many for patrol. That is why people line up. That's why some people pay for their own training (EMT) so they are more competitive applicants. That is why people volly. People don't volly for F&B. You are going to invest in OTJ training for the 1st and 2nd years at a higher cost and they are gonna have high attrition/low return fairly independent of pay because it is hard to live in the mountains and it is a seasonal job and the median personality that patrols is going to "ooh shiny" onto another thing in life (that's my personality too).

It doesn't matter compensationwise that they do socially laudable work like helping people with hurt knees. That's actually a perk that attracts enthusiastic and already trained applicants. That's why mountain medical professionals will volly patrol, because they'd like to get the varierty/adrenaline/thrill/perk of doing some on mountain medical care. But most places, new patrollers are training, putting up rope, putting in fence, retrieving dropped items, side stepping, putting up boo, moving pads, and running rigs. If they are lucky enough to throw a bomb, that is a training investment and a huge perk for the patroller.

This is why I compare new patrollers to to flight attendants, another entry level glamour job with huge perks, low salary, unstable living conditions, high turnover, and applicants line up out the door.

[goldenboy]

^^^ Hmmn, I guess my perception of all this is quite tainted by my local patrol. CB doesn't have volunteer patrol. Everyone has an EMT at a minimum. It's one of the big reasons (along with pay) that I've never really considered it- it's a pretty big time and money commitment. So yeah, I do think they should get paid quite a bit more than a liftie.

You're absolutely right about the supply and demand side of it though. People are willing to patrol as long as they get to ski some pow

[stuckathuntermtn]

I haven't been keeping up with this, but I looked at a recent article that said what the patrollers were asking for and then I saw how much PCMR charges for day tickets and Vail Resorts can suck a fart out of my asshole.

[summit]

EMT is a low commitment. It's typically 4 months of mostly evening classes (140-210 hours) and there are compressed and hybrid courses people do to bang it out in a month (like I did) or less. EMT, though often taught at a community college, is a vocational cert that is offered to highschoolers and the text is at an 7th/8th grade level. It is a really fun course that students genuinely enjoy, especially many of the personality types attracted to EMS who might have HATED typical school/college (me for example). It's novel, engaging, andrenaline enducing, socially laudable, and offers a large scope for minimal investment.

EMTs are starting at $13-18 an hour even in high cost areas and in Denver to start on IFT ambulances, event work, and wheelchair/dialysis vans (undesirable gigs with night shifts). And those jobs require 21+, a clean driving record, and ongoing drug tests. They could make more money as an uber driver, most likely. With experience they could get into an ER and make 18-22/hr starting as a tech. The local community colleges and votech programs will pop out new batches of EMTs 3+ times a years to replace the attrition as people leave for more lucrative jobs like grocery checkout worker or go back to school.

CB is interesting because, from the patrollers I know, despite the EMT requirement, they have historically had such an enthusiastic applicant pool that they actually start people as part timers and you have to work/prove your way into full time, whereas other patrols won't let you go part time until you have a few years in. Now that might be prepandemic/preVR beta...

[Bunion 2020]

Have you ever been a ski patrolman?

[goldenboy]

EMT is a low commitment.

I would disagree, at least locally. Gunnison Valley Hospital kinda sorta occasionally maybe offers EMT classes. So more realistically, you have to leave town to do it. The closest place is probably the Montrose-Delta vocational school, so over 2 hours away each way in the summer, more than that in winter. 18 weeks, 300 hours, over $3K plus testing fees. That doesn't feel low commitment to me.

Anyway, back on topic. Vail keeps saying that they've raised patroller's wages a bunch over the last few years, but they raised all their wages to at least $20/hr, when they were having staffing issues during/right after Covid. I think even a first year patroller deserves more than a buck or two more than a liftie or a fry cook. Or first year instructors that definitely make more when you count tips.

[Meadow Skipper]

Last I heard - a year or two ago - EMT training at the community college was over $1000, class+books+everything. The patrol I worked on was all EMT. In 2006, I paid maybe $150 to get certified.

For people making patrol wages, EMT training of >$1000 isn’t exactly low commitment. Then there’s CEs etc.

[One (+) Sentence]

EMT is a low commitment. It's typically 4 months of mostly evening classes (140-210 hours) and there are compressed and hybrid courses people do to bang it out in a month (like I did)

200 hours spread over 4 months or quitting your job to bang it out in 1 month sounds like the opposite of "low commitment" to me.

[schindlerpiste]

To our guests who are planning a trip later in the season, I am working each and every day to ensure Park City
Mountain delivers the world-class experience you expect.
Thank you,
Deirdra



Talk is cheap. Who, in their right mind, would visit Park City this season? Well, except those joining us for the beloved Film Festival. It seems to me that management is not coming close to "working each and every day to ensure Park City
Mountain delivers the world-class experience you expect". I guess that this is the year where non-refundable lodging and lift tickets/passes has meaning to people in a real, significant way. At this point, although I have skied 8-9 days on the Canyons ribbon this season, I would gladly accept a 50% refund on my EPIC pass. We all know that ain't happening. I'm sure that others feel the same way. Oh well, it is going to be interesting to see how this will affect next year's EPIC sales. They won't get my $$$. PCMR will definitely lose its standing as a top 15 resort, which is very important to management. This will be well deserved.