PARK CITY (and all) SKI PATROLLERS DESERVE MORE.

[skiJ]

guys - I am not sure where some of the numbers come from, and I will try to avoid an opinion about level of commitment -

my friend, who is a patroller and was an EMT first responder for his community for 49 ( forty-nine ) years, went through the EMT course every-other year, three hours, twice weekly for three months or four months ; their goal was eighty hours of training ;
They had to pass the National Registry exam, and they had to complete the training every other year to remain certified/ registered.
( commuting for training is part of the Time commitment, but I can't include it as part of the training )

tgr forums may not be the place for it ( - and then again it may be as good a place for it as any - ), and it certainly does Not fit in a thread about job wages, but
the reason I have stuck with patrolling for decades is the ( fellowship. brotherhood . it is more than camaraderie - ) I found with fellow dedicated patrollers -
'Fun doesn't pay the rent ', but when
one is going to be Out, sometimes in brutally-Cold, Windy! conditions, I hope it is more than just A job.

I don't see any new updates on negotiations -
I apologize for the thread drift.

( skiJ )

[Bunion 2020]

my friend, who is a patroller and was an EMT first responder for his community for 49 ( forty-nine ) years, went through the EMT course every-other year, three hours, twice weekly for three months or four months ; their goal was eighty hours of training ;

You are confused

They had to pass the National Registry exam, and they had to complete the training every other year to remain certified/ registered.
( commuting for training is part of the Time commitment, but I can't include it as part of the training )

I am for former 20 year National Registry EMT. When you are certified that is it. There is no more testing unless you choose to test rather than provide CE hrs for re-certification. There is a requirement to be able to document 40 hrs of Continuing Education for every 2 year cycle.

The EMT National Continued Competency Program (NCCP) requires a total of 40 credits of continuing education to recertify. The model requires continuing education in three components: (1) a national component, (2) a local/state component, and (3) an individual component.

Or

This option enables you to demonstrate continued competency without documenting continuing education.

Login to your National Registry account. Complete a Recertification By Examination application and pay the examination fee.
After 24-48 hours, login to your National Registry account and print your Authorization to Test (ATT) letter. Follow the directions in the letter to schedule your examination.
You may make one attempt to take and pass the examination between April 1 (one year prior to your current expiration date) and March 31 (your expiration date).

Why any sane person would opt for testing VS CE is beyond me.

[mr walker]

From what I have seen, that is not the case. Mid-level patrollers at the local hill are making high 20s to mid 30s.

I think this is why there's some disagreement on what unions are and are not doing for patrols. As far as I know, the pay schedule you listed is quite high compared to that of VR unions. Out of curiosity, did you get figures on what a senior-level patroller is considered and what their pay is (assuming this is BSSP)?

Abject failure on Vail's leadership from a biz standpoint to let it get to this point.
...
So if the union isn't fixing shit so people can stick around, and isn't fixing shit FOR the people who stick around, then what the fuck are they doing other than making a bunch of noise?

Well said. I don't have blind faith in the unions, but we got here by poor management by management at multiple levels.
Also, it's hard to ask your question without getting dog piled by the solidarity crowd, even though I/we/literally everyone also want to see higher wages. It deserves a real answer.


Re: the EMT time commitment - There are now hybrid and accelerated courses. One of my peers took a two week version. When I took mine it was 3-4 hours/night, three days/week, and free. It was insanely easy. Perhaps the unions should pay for it...


I'd imagine the clock is ticking for Deirdra Walsh and that she'll meet a similar fate as Tom Pettigrew (former Stevens Pass VP).


For the union folks out there - Is there a legal or practical reason that all ski patrols aren't part of the same union to enhance their bargaining power? I don't know shit about unions and am genuinely curious.

[Bunion 2020]

Out of curiosity, did you get figures on what a senior-level patroller is considered and what their pay is (assuming this is BSSP)?

I am going off of what ex Moonlight employees tell me, maybe accurate, maybe not.

If you contact them I am certain they will share their pay scale and benefits package information. I can PM you the contacts if you like.

[skiJ]

You are confused


I am for former 20 year National Registry EMT. When you are certified that is it. There is no more testing unless you choose to test rather than provide CE hrs for re-certification. There is a requirement to be able to document 40 hrs of Continuing Education for every 2 year cycle.



Or



Why any sane person would opt for testing VS CE is beyond me.

Clarification.

I was trying to comment to the claims that EMT training is 200hours to 300hours ;

The National Registry Exam has to be passed Once to be [EMT -National Registry ] ;
they were Not taking the exam every other year, And/but the bi-annual training was the way that group maintained their competence, And built their teamwork ( and that is important in EMS situations ) .

as others have mentioned, there are now a variety of methods with which the training can be delivered / received ;
My point was to offer a specific example that it doesn't have to be a 200hour or 300hour program.

My apology, Bunion.

skiJ

[bamboocoreONLY]

I think this is why there's some disagreement on what unions are and are not doing for patrols. As far as I know, the pay schedule you listed is quite high compared to that of VR unions. Out of curiosity, did you get figures on what a senior-level patroller is considered and what their pay is (assuming this is BSSP)?



Well said. I don't have blind faith in the unions, but we got here by poor management by management at multiple levels.
Also, it's hard to ask your question without getting dog piled by the solidarity crowd, even though I/we/literally everyone also want to see higher wages. It deserves a real answer.


Re: the EMT time commitment - There are now hybrid and accelerated courses. One of my peers took a two week version. When I took mine it was 3-4 hours/night, three days/week, and free. It was insanely easy. Perhaps the unions should pay for it...


I'd imagine the clock is ticking for Deirdra Walsh and that she'll meet a similar fate as Tom Pettigrew (former Stevens Pass VP).


For the union folks out there - Is there a legal or practical reason that all ski patrols aren't part of the same union to enhance their bargaining power? I don't know shit about unions and am genuinely curious.

buddy of mine on Breck ski patrol makes $29/hr after 5 years, just for sake of info.

[Hott Butt Mud]

Park City wouldn't have this problem if they just stuck to hiring trust funders for ski patrol. Vail Mountain has this figured out.

[The SnowShow]

buddy of mine on Breck ski patrol makes $29/hr after 5 years, just for sake of info.

How many hours do patrollers work a week?

[bamboocoreONLY]

How many hours do patrollers work a week?

He works 4 days, can be up to 10 hours or so a day I believe. Some work the same but 5 days a week, so they do get some overtime.

[summit]

Depends on the patrol... some will put you through OEC (NSP's patrol specific EMT-light)... some patrols will then pay for your EMT.

Some applicants get their EMT on their own to be more competitive, or to open up other job opportunities, like for summer outdoor industry/ed jobs or future career moves to hospital/medic/fire/nursing/PA etc. I know plenty of docs, PAs, and nurses who started out patrolling.

Some patrols require EMT to apply.

Most folks taking EMT at community will qualify for financial aid... making patroller wages you should be getting federal grants plus there are usually state and local grants and scholarships. Unless they are younger folks who have well off parents who disqualify them grants, federal aid, and needs based scholarships... a very common situation in ski towns... for some reason.

Again, EMT is a vocational cert that highschoolers can take and most EMT jobs pay $1x/hr starting. I'm not saying that is ideal, but put that into the context vs ski patrol. I've been an EMT for a long time and I instruct EMTs, which I enjoy. The class is fun and exciting, and students go out and do great things.

We have folks saying that 150hrs + $1k (minus aid) for EMT is a big commitment. Everything is relative... compared to what? It is big compared to the nothing required to tell cars where to park? Sure, but you have Hutch wondering on the Socials why patrollers don't start making $35/hr RN pay... solidarity hyperbole I know. EMT is typically 150-180 hours. RN is collegiate and 3-5 years of full time year round coursework including prereqs, including typically 600-1200 hours of unpaid mandatory clinical training as part of school. This costs students 75-200K+ so that they can most likely start out as night shift.

There is a nursing shortage. There isn't a patroller shortage.

I know several new DPTs (doctorate in physical therapy) working full time outpatient who are just making $35/hr with all their student debt in high COL areas.

[Name Redacted]

Shit! Even I got my WEMT one time. It wasn't super easy, but not that hard. It is surprising how little many Basic EMT's make but it is definitely an incentive to try to keep moving up the ladder I guess. I just wasn't really that into helping people, and glad that I learned it early in life. haha.

[Hott Butt Mud]

How about the fact that Vail Resorts has exclusively 100% volunteer patrol units at their Peak Resorts acquired hills in the Midwest? How is a mega corporation able to get away with having all volunteer, un-paid patrollers in the Midwest?

You can say, "because that's how it's always been", but it hasn't always been Vail Resorts, a publicly traded company, as the owner.

I think the ski patrol, just like ski school, should be paid at the Midwest ski resorts.

[summit]

How about the fact that Vail Resorts has exclusively 100% volunteer patrol units at their Peak Resorts acquired hills in the Midwest? How is a mega corporation able to get away with having all volunteer, un-paid patrollers in the Midwest?

The thing about volunteers is that they are voluntary. If that is a working system, it is because people want to do it for perks, a pass, glamour, and proforms at $0/hr. Some jobs get people to do that.

Why is SAR 99.9% volunteer?

Why are many fire departments all or part volunteer? And ambulance services?

I remember my first EMT job was $7.89/hr two decades ago. And it was VERY competitive to get a 911 ambulance job as a new EMT. I had to work part time until a full time spot opened. Ski patrol had offered me more $ than ambo. I knew there was even better money at the grocery store, but guess which job was more fun (and traumatic)?

Supply and demand determines the price... and it is a bitch.

[mr walker]

There is a nursing shortage. There isn't a patroller shortage.

Thank you, spot on! And this is exactly what I mean when I say the unions have a messaging problem.
"Highly valuable certifications!" Like what? EMT? lol. An explosives license? For the uninitiated: You watch some shots get thrown, take a written test, get some finger prints, and pay some money. Lift evac? This can be taught in one afternoon. Avalanche courses? Even the Pro courses are available to anyone with a pulse now.

What isn't properly teased out by the unions is how all of the above, over time, creates a valuable employee worth retaining.

If line patrollers/unions want nursing pay, then they should fix their messaging to justify it. PCSPA's Instragram is cringe worthy and a shining example of what not to do.

I think the ski patrol, just like ski school, should be paid at the Midwest ski resorts.

Oh man, that's a can of worms lol

[skiJ]

https://www.saminfo.com/news/sam-hea...iations-resume

today's report on SAM
( I don't see anything new -

Mrs. Walsh is Very measured in her comments. )

[RegCT]

I think my EMT class cost around $800 in 2014. ~180 hours or whatever it was over 8 or 9 weeks. Then ~40 hours of CE each year to recert every two years. The CE was provided during refresher by my employer. Which was a great value. Plus whatever extra hours were offered throughout the season.

During my tenure, we worked 4-10 hour days with an option for a half day 5th day to do routes in the morning. I think I started at like $11/hour, then the following year the rookies were hired at $13/hour, and I was still making like $11.50, which I thought was funny. But then got my shit together over the next few years (started working FTYR) and I think I was making $25/hour when I quit patrolling in...2022?

It was a cool fucking job. I did it for the high fives and free booze, the adrenaline, the pow, and was never in it for the money. Patrollers are always lauded as heros, which is fun and feeds the ego and it is an important part of mountain operations, but I always laughed at that hero sentiment because I felt like I was just scamming the system to ski untracked pow at sunrise.

Really really good chapter in life but I'm glad I'm not going to grow old as a ski patroller.

[RegCT]

https://www.saminfo.com/news/sam-hea...iations-resume

Mrs. Walsh is Very measured in her comments. )

The National Labor Relations Act is VERY restrictive of the company during negotiations. She legally is not allowed to say much.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I think my EMT class cost around $800 in 2014. ~180 hours or whatever it was over 8 or 9 weeks. Then ~40 hours of CE each year to recert every two years. The CE was provided during refresher by my employer. Which was a great value. Plus whatever extra hours were offered throughout the season.

During my tenure, we worked 4-10 hour days with an option for a half day 5th day to do routes in the morning. I think I started at like $11/hour, then the following year the rookies were hired at $13/hour which I thought was funny. But then got my shit together over the next few years (started working FTYR) and I think I was making $25/hour when I quit patrolling in...2022?

It was a cool fucking job. I did it for the high fives and free booze, the adrenaline, the pow, and was never in it for the money. Patrollers are always lauded as heros, which is fun and feeds the ego and it is an important part of mountain operations, but I always laughed at that hero sentiment because I felt like I was just scamming the system to ski untracked pow at sunrise.

Really really good chapter in life but I'm glad I'm not going to grow old as a ski patroller.

Glad to hear your input. Skiing off the top today I am always amazed at what the BSSP does on a daily basis and do my best to thank them when I ski by.

[skiJ]

The National Labor Relations Act is VERY restrictive of the company during negotiations. She legally is not allowed to say much.

I am not expecting Mrs. Walsh to comment to negotiations, ,,, but I believe customer dissatisfaction could be acknowledged [ shrug ]

[Hott Butt Mud]

The thing about volunteers is that they are voluntary. If that is a working system, it is because people want to do it for perks, a pass, glamour, and proforms at $0/hr. Some jobs get people to do that.

Why is SAR 99.9% volunteer?

Why are many fire departments all or part volunteer? And ambulance services?

I remember my first EMT job was $7.89/hr two decades ago. And it was VERY competitive to get a 911 ambulance job as a new EMT. I had to work part time until a full time spot opened. Ski patrol had offered me more $ than ambo. I knew there was even better money at the grocery store, but guess which job was more fun (and traumatic)?

Supply and demand determines the price... and it is a bitch.

You're comparing two things that are not equal. A 'For-Profit' business, versus a 'Non-Profit' organization.

[Bunion 2020]

Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
There is a nursing shortage. There isn't a patroller shortage.

There is a qualified patroller shortage. I talked to a friend at another ski area today he and I patrolled at 3 different areas together. He and I forecasted together.

2 patrollers took real rides on their opening day. Neither of these had < 5 years experience.

As long as everything is going fine and you have 3-5 years worth of slides in the carousel you can get by. Its when things get strange that you need that 8-15 year institutional knowledge.

And sometimes even that isn't enough.

And in reality I don't care how much cool factor the job may have, you want someone good running a sled with a broken femur patient or running a control route with explosives that fucking simple.

These professionals are asking for a little more $$$ and they currently are starting to get paid what they pay some clown to work in Taco Bell here.

It was a cool fucking job. I did it for the high fives and free booze, the adrenaline, the pow, and was never in it for the money. Patrollers are always lauded as heros, which is fun and feeds the ego and it is an important part of mountain operations, but I always laughed at that hero sentiment because I felt like I was just scamming the system to ski untracked pow at sunrise.

You saw the end of an era and spent most of your career during its heyday. I started at Big Sky at $ 6.75 an hr but rent was < $ 200 a month.

I am always amazed at what the BSSP does on a daily basis and do my best to thank them when I ski by.

Same. And I can tell you, it IS appreciated.

[Rob Stokes]

I did it for the high fives and free booze, the adrenaline, the pow, and was never in it for the money.

Awesome that you are independently wealthy and didn't need to work for money. There are many people less fortunate than you that deserve a living wage to do the job the have chosen.



Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk

[summit]

There is a qualified patroller shortage.

We agree! As mr walker points out:

What isn't properly teased out by the unions is how all of the above, over time, creates a valuable employee worth retaining.

That's why you see me rolling my eyes over typical union shouting about starting pay, but absolutely raising my fist about underpayment of very qualified and experienced patrollers that have advanced training framed by years of experience. They make the important calls, have the institutional and experiential knowledge to guide their teams and see the problems before they happen, to manage a tenuous situation and get a good outcome, etc etc etc.

[new yabyum]

Awesome that you are independently wealthy and didn't need to work for money. There are many people less fortunate than you that deserve a living wage to do the job the have chosen.



Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk

Your're kidding ? Right?

[byates1]

It is insane that most of the patrol at one of the wealthiest spots in the country has to walk out to try and get 23 bucks an hour.

Like bunion said dishwashers in bzn can make 30$.

Utah wages are garbage like Idaho and NM. Shit all the j1s here make 23 plus to stare at their phones and look as disinterested as possible.

Fuck Vail.