To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[summit]

In addition to what jono points out, the CDC basically won't allow publication on this topic without it going through the RFK clearing house. The institution has been compromised. Conclusions are being suppressed and others are being incentivized by the politicization of public health.

When you look at a vaccine for a highly communicable disease like COVID you must consider aggregate effects on populations via reducing transmission, and thus extra reduction in community disease burden. You cannot compare directly the risk benefits diagnostic tests like mammograms and colonoscopies, or disease modification drugs like statins, all of which lack such synergies.

Comparing it to PCV is not a good comparison either because the targeting around PCV is certainly first about prevention of disease, but colonization by bacteria is a key thing to interrupt to have a synergy and this most effective in young children, so there is an applicable stratification in risk/benefit, especially since pathologic infection is often a secondary infection and it is not the same as a highly communicable virus like COVID or even influenza which does enjoy a universal recommendation for vaccination to reduce community burden as well as individual risk reduction.

Comparing COVID vaccines to cancer screenings or chronic disease modifying drugs is a not a reasonable risk/benefit comparison. Nor is it right for Prasad to trot out a bullshit strawman to tear down in his NEJM article.

So the right question is: why is COVID vaccine being treated different than Influenza vaccine when COVID is both more communicable and often more severe? THEN you can have a discussion about VE with endpoints beyond the easy hospitalization/death where yes, much of the population retains protection against severe disease due to previous vaccination/infection, and flu exhibits different escape profiles. But the synergy of reduced transmission and societal benefits of reduced disease burden absolutely apply to both.

[Trackhead]

So in short, Canada and Yurp and most other countries are misguided?

All Americans should get two boosters per year, without regard for preexisting conditions?

[civilcoconut]

If access for 65+ and under is restricted to requiring additional authorization and not covered by insurance and pregnant women are not recommended then we are offering less access than Canada and most EU countries.

So if they are so smart, how come we are uneccessarily restriciting access to CoVID vaccines?

[Trackhead]

Agree, pregnancy exclusion is a mistake.


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[XXX-er]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-...tes_by_country

3600 deaths per million which put USA at 14th in the covid world epidemic

just for the sake of comparison of 2 very similar countries Canada comes in at 87th with 1400 death per million at the time

USA was being run by a fucking idiot and that same fucking idiot is in charge now

there is still plenty of time to put up the winning numbers!

[Trackhead]

XXX, are you boosting yourself every six months? If you have family, what are they doing? Obviously it’s a privacy issue so feel free to not respond. But if you feel inclined, I’d be curious to know more about you, and others in this thread as to your current vax protocol for yourself.


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[byates1]

I'm getting a booster a day trying to get autism later in life to become a savant at numbers thereby becoming a top wall st trader to make gillion to make up for my living in a van down by the river and skiing 100 every year what could go wrong the end.

[Trackhead]

I'm getting a booster a day trying to get autism later in life to become a savant at numbers thereby becoming a top wall st trader to make gillion to make up for my living in a van down by the river and skiing 100 every year what could go wrong the end.

That’s great but it won’t cure your FULL BLOWN AIDS.


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[buttahflake]

Ya got the idiot part dialed you fat fuck, don’t ya?

[byates1]

Trackhead is quite fit butter. Assailing random maggots is quite poor form I'd encourage you to up your boosters and lsd intake.

[XXX-er]

I have had all of the vax I think that must be 8 shots & flu too I think they come every fall ? SO in the BC system I get a text from the BC health system whenever its time to vax other wise its just not going to be there, I go to the small town safeway when i am stocking up on food and booze to get the shot, i usually make a vax joke like whats in this stuff I'm sticking to metal doorways ? The pharmascist also has good jokes and a deadpan delivery, claims you need real tin foil in yer hat 2 layers and none of that aluminium foil.


Both my kids are smart & have done well, they get the vax even tho one of them is religious he aint stupid, my younger sister gets vax no probelm there


but I'm not sure about my older sister she is old not in great health they should Vax but her BF is or was MAGA at least during trumps 1st term , problem is that this term the BF is totally the wrong color and originaly from either from columbia or venezuela SO he can't visit his son in America I think he might even be afraid to go to the old country SO of course I called out their MAGA asses and laughed at them but she claims oh no we arent MAGA oh yes you were BF is just now the wrong color LOL so I laughed at her for backing a dumb ass

the same dumb ass who is running America

[uglymoney]

That’s great but it won’t cure your FULL BLOWN AIDS.


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My wife has RA and takes some really strong immunosuppressing drugs that control it well. That on top of asthma. Minor respiratory viruses can put her down.
My parents are both early eighties. I have contact with them multiple times a week.

Me. 54, mostly healthy, although I could perpetually use to lose 15 lbs. Getting sick sucks for me. I work overnight and it is normal for me to handle 30k lbs of food.. Calling in sick is a hardship on someone else. I'd rather not. Nor do I want to spread disease to multiple customers.

Back when the flu shot was not recommended for everyone I would get it through my job. Elderly grandparents at the time and the flu really, really fucks me up. I have had the flu booster every year since the middle nineties. Until covid becomes just another cold, why shouldn't I get it?

The risk with the heart with covid vaccine was associated with the two quick doses at the beginning of the pandemic. Not a significant risk then and almost not at all now. This according to the cdc dude who just resigned and is all over the media.

Anyway, my right arm is sore today. Still ripped some slalom turns on the river. Feel fine after yesterday's dosing. Thankful getting the shots.was easy for us. Hopefully we can get my daughter vaxed as well.

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[XXX-er]

I should add in Canada as opposed to the Charlatan model we employ real epidemiologists so that would be one at the federal level and also one in each province or territory and they call the shots literally

At age 69 still not on any meds, the microdosing mushrooms does not count

[mcski]

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All Americans should get two boosters per year, without regard for preexisting conditions?

Again, if a flu shot is recommended every year, why the fuck would a Covid booster not be recommended as well? I can’t fathom any evidence that would suggests one should be available to everyone while the other is only available to old and/or compromised people.

[Trackhead]

Mcski,

We’re talking about Covid vaccines, but I agree with your statement.

So how many boosters do you get a year?


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[mcski]

I get that but you also made comparisons to other preventatives that were less analogous imo

I don’t recall fir sure but don’t think I’ve gotten more than one per year since after the first year. Last year I didn’t bother since I had had Covid right before the new version was released then never got around to it. Would get one this year if available

[byates1]

637 per year is up there . I thought my one a day was sending it..

[mcski]

lol. Fixed the emoji math

[Trackhead]

I get that but you also made comparisons to other preventatives that were less analogous imo

I don’t recall fir sure but don’t think I’ve gotten more than one per year since after the first year. Last year I didn’t bother since I had had Covid right before the new version was released then never got around to it. Would get one this year if available

Harder thing with Covid timing is it seems much less seasonal than flu. Granted, flu lingers a bit all year but seems to have a more consistent seasonal pattern.


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[old goat]

This right here is why the anti-vax movement gets foreign funding--it's a really solid investment for those competing with the US. As Bill Gates has said many times, the best ROI available in lives/$ is giving vaccinations in low income countries (soon to be us). And as Sun Tzu said, know your enemy: foster dissent and discontent and drive down the efficiency of his economy. (See the modern Chinese doctrine of Unrestricted Warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_Warfare ) The sick thing about this "debate" is how obvious the evidence is. Best-vaccinated had 1/10th the all cause mortality versus unvaccinated well into 2023. And these evil corporations are still funding lottery-level payments to the rare victims of severe vaccine side effects: how can they possibly afford to do that when all they care about is money? Because it's lottery-level rare, obviously. I'm less concerned than some about insurance. Insurance companies should know how to make money, and it's not by skimping on vaccines.

Old goat, You can still get the vaccine but might require an order/Rx. I agree, being sick sucks. I’ve got influenza right now, early flu season. Shots don’t come available here until October 1. That said, how can we argue against risk/age stratification, evidence based approaches like PCV20? We do the same for statins, colonoscopies, mammograms, etc. All evidence based. This isn’t some far fetched guidance. Yes, I understand RFK influence is bad, but objectively the guidance is evidence based. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the US approach was the wrong one, how come the US economy spent 2 years recovering faster than any other economy in the world? Maybe the shotgun approach saw a net overall benefit. I'm much more interested in that evidence than whatever cherry-picked, confirmation-biased small-sample nonsense the vaccine skeptics are pushing. No one ever went broke underestimating the sophistication of the US consumer. (Said before we learned that people can't even figure this one out.)

In addition to what jono points out, the CDC basically won't allow publication on this topic without it going through the RFK clearing house. The institution has been compromised. Conclusions are being suppressed and others are being incentivized by the politicization of public health. When you look at a vaccine for a highly communicable disease like COVID you must consider aggregate effects on populations via reducing transmission, and thus extra reduction in community disease burden. You cannot compare directly the risk benefits diagnostic tests like mammograms and colonoscopies, or disease modification drugs like statins, all of which lack such synergies. Comparing it to PCV is not a good comparison either because the targeting around PCV is certainly first about prevention of disease, but colonization by bacteria is a key thing to interrupt to have a synergy and this most effective in young children, so there is an applicable stratification in risk/benefit, especially since pathologic infection is often a secondary infection and it is not the same as a highly communicable virus like COVID or even influenza which does enjoy a universal recommendation for vaccination to reduce community burden as well as individual risk reduction. Comparing COVID vaccines to cancer screenings or chronic disease modifying drugs is a not a reasonable risk/benefit comparison. Nor is it right for Prasad to trot out a bullshit strawman to tear down in his NEJM article. So the right question is: why is COVID vaccine being treated different than Influenza vaccine when COVID is both more communicable and often more severe? THEN you can have a discussion about VE with endpoints beyond the easy hospitalization/death where yes, much of the population retains protection against severe disease due to previous vaccination/infection, and flu exhibits different escape profiles. But the synergy of reduced transmission and societal benefits of reduced disease burden absolutely apply to both.

This ^^^
A few other points. The vaccine compensation program is funded by a tax on each shot, so the cost is born by the insurers and ultimately by all of us. It was a response to the danger of vaccine makers going out of business because juries were giving huge awards to people with dubious claims of injury. The burden of proof for these claims is low, the majority of sccessful claims--usually settlements probably go to people who were not injured by vaccines, and the bar for bringing a claim is low because your attorney's fees are covered even if you lose.
In addition to what summit said, the difference between covid vax and things like statins and other medical interventions for non infecdtious diseases is simply that the latter have a much higher risk than vaccines. A covid shot makes my muscles ache for a day. A statin makes my muscles ache until I stop taking them,
And most importantly Rockin Pneumonia was written and recorded by Huey "Piano" Smith from NOLA in 1957. Another song by a black musician that made money for white musicians.

[old goat]

One more thing--the reason the US economy recovered faster than Europe was the stimulus checks and other pandemic relief which saved us from a severe recession at the expense of inflation and Trump in the WH. Same reason we recovered faster from the Great Recession--Obama's stimulus package. (Now if he had just thrown a bunch of bankers in jail.)

[old goat]

Mammograms and colonoscopies aren't risk free either. The morbidity from false positives on mammograms is considerable so it makes sense to do them in higher risk--older--populations. Colonoscopy carries the low risk of perforation and is much more time and resource intensive than vaccination. Sorry for the post bombing but I'm trying to cope with the glitches in the multiquote function.

[XXX-er]

My dad ended up a bag shitter 4 instances on his mothers side SO I started get the butt scope at i think 42, first time I asked the pro what were the risks he said "1 in 1000 I poke a hole in yer guts ", ok so can ya fix it and he said yes and so I've since had 5 or 6 the prep is the worst part

I asked my medical consultant about the risks of Covid vax during a wellness check and buddy said sure there are risks but covid is a bigger risk

[PB]

Cost-benefit: how DOES it work???

[Trackhead]

Mammograms and colonoscopies aren't risk free either. The morbidity from false positives on mammograms is considerable so it makes sense to do them in higher risk--older--populations. Colonoscopy carries the low risk of perforation and is much more time and resource intensive than vaccination. Sorry for the post bombing but I'm trying to cope with the glitches in the multiquote function.

Agreed. Like a PSA leading to unnecessary biopsy. My wife’s first colonoscopy at 50 had micro perf.

So yes, agree there’s not apparent harm in frequent boosters.

My curiosity lies in what I perceive/and see clinically as a now a self limiting illness for most healthy individuals. With benefit of vax is very very very low. Our guidelines in US, Europe, Canada reflect that. So don’t understand why people are so upset about a change in US policy that essentially mirrors the rest of the world (pregnancy excluded).


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