To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[bodywhomper]

The general vax shit out of HHS over the past few weeks sucks. Related to COVID, my family had (apparent) success with novavax for the past 2 years w/ no known infections, which included 2 kids in high school, a kid living in college dorms w/several known outbreaks in student housing, and wife’s persistent exposures via her therapy services at her work.

Re:clots and COVID, Mayo Clinic includes “Stroke or blood clots” as a disease diagnosis due to long COVID. WHO lists “microscopic blood clots” as a “post COVID condition.” Lots of other reasons for blood clots.

My father’s clotting source was never determined even after over a month of living in a hospital in recovery from a surgery while his team was trying to “figure it out.” Long covid was never ruled out.

[Trackhead]

<p>
The Nuke Option, People die of provoked and unprovoked saddle emboli all the time. Attribution to Covid vax/not vax is illogical.</p>
<p>
Annual incidence of PE in general population is 1 per 1,000. Of those, 5-10% die. How do we account for all the pulmonary embolism&#39;s prior to COVID?&nbsp;</p>

[The Nuclear Option]

What scientific studies are you relying on. All those that I could find indicate a higher risk of VTE etc for unvaccinated who get covid than those vaccinates.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9585885
https://ashpublications.org/bloodadv...ce=chatgpt.com
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.063296?utm

[Trackhead]

Did your uncle have Covid prior to DVT/PE?

I’m relying on 30 years of healthcare experience in ER/ICU.

[The Nuclear Option]

I am not sure whether he had Covid, but given his political antivax stance there is a high likelihood.
How does your ER experience override the scientific data? What is your scientific reasoning?

[Trackhead]

All those studies you cited are primarily DVT rates in hospitalized patients which have an extraordinarily higher incidence. The last study is about DVT risk from a vax.

Details surrounding DVT are important. Hospitalized or not. Covid or not. Smoking history. Recent surgery, travel, immobilization, etc.

You can’t automatically assume a Magatard with a DVT is due to Covid, especially in the ambulatory/non hospitalized patient.

Hematologist can differentiate provoked vs. unprovoked.

[Trackhead]

Sounds like you’re assuming he had Covid but have no real certainty at all. This sounds like unprovoked DVT and I bet he’s going to be evaluated by hematologist to assess for underlying clotting disorder.

This is all based on limited details.

[The Nuclear Option]

Yes it’s conjecture on my part since I do not know the medical details.But that you have higher risk of such things is borne out by this study, right?https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1...chatgpt.com#F1

[Trackhead]

Well sure, but in the real world, as someone who diagnoses DVT/PE fairly frequently, it’s exceedingly uncommon in todays demographic to see DVT/PE follow COVID in the outpatient setting, vax or not.

I would be willing to wager your uncle had unprovoked PE not associated with covid and he’s lucky to have survived.

It’s kinda pathologic to see someone almost die in your family from a PE and post on the internet that their misfortune was a result of their political affiliation.

[The Nuclear Option]

There your real feelings are. He’s my family Dr Ahole. I love the guy and your reversion to that particular part is telling.

[Trackhead]

My feelings based on DVT risk are based on observation/facts/real world experience. Yours are based on assumptions.

[The Nuclear Option]

That aside, you didnt even read the stuff I posted, as is clear in your erroneous response about the studies.Feelings, Dr Maga has strong feelings.

[Trackhead]

Perhaps I misinterpreted your initial post but calling a loved one a Magatard in the same sentence describing his near death is anything but “loving”.

You pulled that assumption literally out of thin air (Covid caused his DVT).

Hope your uncle recovers fully.

[The Nuclear Option]

Well, if he is intellectually backasswarded by fake news MAGA, he is in my view MAGAtarded. Independent guy here. He simply has had his actual intellect retarded. Hence.

But lets be honest. You are not the sort of Dr quailified for such. More of a plumber from how it&#39;s been desribed to me by medical peeps. &quot;There is a leak!&quot; &quot;He&#39;s dying&quot;. You always hand them off, right.
More concerning is your haste and error in proclaimed medical expertise. Expert Halo much?

[Trackhead]

Ok enjoy.

[bodywhomper]

Can it be ruled out? How?

My dad died at ucla med center last year in their icu. His initial microclots were thought to be from DVT related to a surgery. The microclots observed 2 months later at the time he was in the icu recovering for a different surgery (tee gone wrong) could not be traced back to DVT, but after multiple weeks of diagnostics, they were still unable to dx the source of the clots. They were not able to rule out a previous (mild) covid infection as the reason for the clots (he had been vaxed when he had a known infection a year earlier).

[Trackhead]

Sorry about your father. His case was complicated by hospitalization and prior recent surgery. Honestly in a case like his, discussing it on the internet is largely impossible because it is highly nuanced (history, labs, etc).

In the case of non-hospital associated seemingly unprovoked DVT, these happen somewhat infrequently and it’s not typically associated with recent Covid. Data suggests 5:10,000 DVT incidence in general ambulatory non hospitalized patients. 40-50% unprovoked/idiopathic. Incidence in ambulatory non hospitalized recent COVID patients is 0.1-0.3% in general population. Same study .02-.025% annual incidence in population not having COVID. So yes, COVID increases risk, but baseline risk remains nominal.




Fowkes FJ, Price JF, Fowkes FG. Incidence of diagnosed deep vein thrombosis in the general population: systematic review. Eur J Vasc Endovasc Surg. 2003 Jan;25(1):1-5. doi: 10.1053/ejvs.2002.1778. PMID: 12525804.

Fang MC, Reynolds K, Tabada GH, Prasad PA, Sung SH, Parks AL, Garcia E, Portugal C, Fan D, Pai AP, Go AS. Assessment of the Risk of Venous Thromboembolism in Nonhospitalized Patients With COVID-19. JAMA Netw Open. 2023 Mar 1;6(3):e232338. doi:

[Mofro261]

Not just covid but really, any condition that promotes a state of excess inflammation. Pneumo, flu, strep staph, ebv, cmv, and covid too. Diabetes, smoking, et cetra.

[Trackhead]

Even DVT/PE creates continued prothrombotic state. So yeah, discussion of DVT risk is highly nuanced.

[californiagrown]

. More concerning is your haste and error in proclaimed medical expertise. Expert Halo much?

More concerning than your offhand dismisal of 3 decades experience treating acutely sick patients with an up-to-date medical expertise, becaus you read a single study and dislike your family members political leanings? Jump to conclusions much?

People who blame long covid for all ills that happen after a covid infection are as bad as the people who blame the vaccine for all ills post jab. The odds are MUCH,MUCH greater that the reason you are sick is because of factors unrelated to covid, or the covid vaccine. There may be increased risk from a covid infection, and there may be increased risk from the vaccine, but the VAST, VAST, VAST majority of people who get either see no real ill effects long term. Personally, i get a flu shot and covid shot every fall... its quick, easy and if it cuts my risk of getting a bad flu or covid by 50% its a big win... We all likely do shit on the daily that poses far more risk to our personal health than the jab or the a case of covid as a healthy/fit person. If you are not a healthy fit person, then yes covid may poses serious short and long term risks... but so do the reasons you are not healthy/fit. Less jumping to conclusions and casting dismissive blame and more compassion is needed.

We as a society are missing out on a HUGE opportunity to examine in a sober, scientific manner, how our response to covid worked and failed. This will be vital for the next time we encounter a scary new virus with pandemic potential... but instead it seems like everyone has just picked a side and ridigly adheres to a black/white view instead of seeing nuance and gray. It is absolutely wild to me that a report has not been comissioned by the WHO, or US Gov that systematically examines covid policies from around the world and analyzes how the succeded/failed, why, and in what situations they may/may not be appropriate in the future. For as MASSIVE of a worldwide black swan event covid was, there has been jack-shit for follow up on how to proceed if something similar where to happen again. Really disheartening.

[old goat]

Trackhead et al are right.There is a logical fallacy here: just because the risk of DVT/PE is increased in Covid does not mean that every case of DVT/PE is due to Covid. At this point just about everyone in the US has had covid or the vacc or both. If we accept the logical fallacy--going forward all DVT/PE are due to covid or the vacc. Except that plenty of people had DVT/PE before covid and the vacc existed.

[bodywhomper]

I thought the broad brushstroke estimate rate of long covid was six percent of those infected. That’s a lot of people.
Here’s the who report from this past Feb

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-s...il/post-covid-[emoji637][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]]]-condition-(long-covid)


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[californiagrown]

That link doesnt link. I find it really hard to believe that 6% number, unless they have a really low bar for what long-covid is (IMO). 1 out of every 16 people is suffering from long covid? What is their definition of long-covid?

[The Nuclear Option]

Why would you not believe that

[The Nuclear Option]

No logical fallacy. No one asserted that all DVT cases were Covid related. That is in effect a strawman argument.

Honestly, it concerns me that you guys are the great doctors ready to save us as you conflate things, argue that sources quoted say something different than they due our of arrogant laziness, and de facto execute on a strawman basis.
IMO your biggest weakness IS your experience and expertise.