PARK CITY (and all) SKI PATROLLERS DESERVE MORE.

[Meadow Skipper]

i sure as shit would.

I pretty much saw that coming.

[schindlerpiste]

https://townlift.com/2025/01/park-ci...WfSGOpGTpBsmVA

Park City mayor gets involved. ...tells Vail to settle labor dispute. That's gold. Bwahahahaha

[TBS]

^^^ notice that she sez nothing about the union in that statement - puts the ball squarely in management’s court.

I pretty much saw that coming.

No surprise - he’ll fuck anything with a pulse.
Me? I don’t think I’d fuck Deirdre with your dick…

And SUF - she is not a 10 - even in a mountain town.

[Core Shot]

I have a trip planned at the end of the month to Park City. Is this something I should consider cancelling?

Yes. Kirkwood or crested butte are better. Hell, I’d rather ski vail mothership than risk this shitshow being resolved.

Epic has the shittiest “mountains” east of the Mississippi (except Stowe, not sure how that snuck in there)
Biz model is local pass to 250-700 vert makes a captive audience out west.

If you like ootah, ikon is the answer. And the spring skiing at squaw is the best in the nation.

PS. The death of www.epicski.com proved their love of skiers and skiing.

[summit]

Fuck this arguing over the supposed $7/hr. ‘Trollers starting at $30/hr in PC is fully justified.

Vail would never agree to that...

[TBS]

^^^Even if it means running at 20% of capacity?

If the pass is already bought (non refundable)... why not still ski there but bring pocket beers and/or eat in town?

When the grocery store in town went on strike, o didn't throw out the groceries in my fridge in solidarity. I ate them, and then went to the other store in town when I ran out.

Because VR corporate undoubtedly allocates season pass revenue to each location based on skier days. So not going to a VR resort other than PCMR means less revenue allocated to them, so less profit and thus reduced bonuses for the management team.

Hit ‘em where they hurt

[supermodel159]

Yes. Kirkwood or crested butte are better. Hell, I’d rather ski vail mothership than risk this shitshow being resolved.

Epic has the shittiest “mountains” east of the Mississippi (except Stowe, not sure how that snuck in there)
Biz model is local pass to 250-700 vert makes a captive audience out west.

If you like ootah, ikon is the answer. And the spring skiing at squaw is the best in the nation.

PS. The death of www.epicski.com proved their love of skiers and skiing.

Ya, I have an IKON, but always try to mix it up.

[TBS]

^^^Go to Deer Valley - it’s Ikonic.

[Harry]

Appreciate it Harry. The new operation in Big Sky is fubar. Come back.

I have heard that things are very fucked now that The Mayor isn't running the show.

I get texts all the time from citizens complaining about the change in that office, they all say it’s a shitshow now, and wanting me to come back and fix it. Warms my heart knowing that some people recognize my hard work.

[Ski220]

guys -
the 7/hr is what management is claiming the union's demand would cost VR -

reading "between-the-lines" , I believe it has (much) more to do with other compensation ( probably health insurance ) --

[ shrug ] skiJ

This.

In labor negotiations management has a certain sized cake they are willing to share with
the employees. The go round is just how they are going to slice it up. The only way to
get them to throw more dough ($) into the mix is to cause the company enough pain to
get them to blink first. It's a staring contest. Unfortunately the company usually has more
resources then the hourly wage earner and can outlast them.

The other factor in play here is that MTN has a lot of other individual operations and everybody
is watching the outcome at PCMR. If MTN is seen as caving into the union demands through
a job action it's going to embolden other bargaining units to follow suit.

(Xover, I think) posted some rough hypothetical total man hours for MTN way down thread. For
MTN, they are probably looking at this as an existential threat to their bottom line. How much can
they jack their customer base for before they lose it.

[Conundrum]

https://investors.vailresorts.com/ne...orkplaces-2025

"This recognition belongs to our 55,000 passionate and talented team members," said Vail Resorts Chief Executive Officer Kirsten Lynch. "Our company mission is to create the Experience of a Lifetime for our employees, so they, in turn, can create the Experience of a Lifetime for our guests. Whether they stay for a season, or a career, investing in our people is at the core of that mission, ensuring we are building leaders in each of our team members and creating a differentiated guest experience."

[Core Shot]

Ya, I have an IKON, but always try to mix it up.

Well then you’re good. If pc is still a shitshow then head up to powder mountain. Or backtrack to the canyons.

^^^Go to Deer Valley - it’s Ikonic.

A ski ripper friend loves that place. Someday I need him to tour guide me. All the crowds are on piste.

[neufox47]

today you learned that the outdoor industry =/= general salary ranges for similar titles.

the tone of this is just another poor attempt at asking for people to be nie.
https://www.parkrecord.com/2025/01/0...-with-respect/

I wish that article had comments turned on.

[Foggy_Goggles]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIpscE8VWU8

I'm assuming this is national news and people still watch this? I have no idea if this will spin into a Cancel Park City type of think or if it is just a hot take to be replaced by something else.

I'm the Treasurer (elected official) of our $1mm budget local water and sewer district. We have four employees. For years, I've said that our most valuable asset is our employees and that we should position ourselves as a premium employer. I'd estimate 85% of the homeowners in the district are something other than people that work in the community.

It is interesting to hear them support higher wages generally but then start to push back when they have to pay the bill. But me being me...I phrase in terms of Starbucks per week, puffy coats in the closet or some other bougie metric and shame them into keeping their mouth shut. As said prior, their is a vocal minority that has no idea what the actual costs of living are (I ask then, they don't know what rent is, they don't know what health insurance costs), but even the illusion of coming close to their pocket books makes them rage. We start at $30 with benefits and go up from there. Lots of training and advancement. Employees stick around and have that feeling that their job provides.

So I wonder, within the fabric of the movers and shakers in PC, what the cocktail party chat is. Because this whole thing is propped up on sub living wages. And the service industry, real or imagined, loves to cry out not enough help, but doesn't pay up. So when we've got, hour plus long lines at the grocery and hour long commutes from in town to the ski area and so on, I have to wonder if it is sustainable and what the collective business owning class thinks about all of it. I do know that there is a lot of conversation locally on both sides of the paycheck about wages spurred by this strike. I've said forever that labor should have a sick out of something around here.

I do know that +/- 10year patrollers with avi control experience make about $30/hr. at Winter Park. They can work 4 or 5 (with overtime) days a week. The profile is either people that work there winter only as a break from their higher paying job, no kids dirty baggy types making in happen or second income family folks that highly value the benefits. I'll tell you, I'd hire any of them in a second. They tend to be really high quality, very hardworking, smart people.

So maybe put a study on your supply and demand model for labor pricing and see where it falls on its face in the USA. People love to lean on the highschool econ without an understanding of imperfect markets. So high fives to you if your made the life choices and have been fortunate enough to feel financially successful. But we as a society need the rank and file worker bees and right now they are not making it, ski patrollers and otherwise.

So think about what you want life to look at for these people. What are you willing to give up? How much more would you be willing to pay for your season pass? Because that's the calculus that will make a difference. We don't get to socially engineer some solution where we say Fuck Vail and Alterra and every other corporate and non corporate ski town business owner but yeah cheap passes and $100 house cleans and $18 hr. dishwashers and cheap Chinese .

Its all of it.

[old goat]

Henry Ford (racist SOB that he was) had it figured out. Pay his workers enough to buy his cars.

[summit]

^^^Even if it means running at 20% of capacity?

Well you have fallen for the union dream of "they must cave. We have all the power." Well, why not ask for $35/hr starting then? $40/hr? Why shouldn't a rookie patroller make as much as that communications senior manager? If your patroller union strategy is: "we'll make them look bad, piss off some customers, hit their stock prices, hit some revenue, use social pressure" and you conclude that is the ultimate high ground... well why not $50/hr?

Because the patrol doesn't have all the power. They do have some, but they can't dictate terms. Understand Vail fucked up hard core by not fixing this ahead of a conflict and strike, but now that they are here, look at VR's hand and strategic outlook vs your "why not $30/hr?":

$30/hr starting for PCMR patrol will be a neon sign in the sky to not just every patrol at every mountain, but every job to unionize and threaten to strike.
VR's business model probably doesn't work long term if labor costs rise 50%.
Vail has 42 mountains, so losing rev and rep at one sucks, but not as much as mass unionization and labor costs everywhere rising
Vail has FAR deeper pockets than those ski patrollers do. They can outslast them short term easy peasy. They can weather temporary stock price declines, lift line chants, and scoldings from the local government. The patrollers have bills to pay and the gofundme won't last long. They'll cave, or they'll quit.
$30/hr is far above what other low-barrier-to-entry jobs-with-perks start at, and almost double what new EMTs make in other jobs. That means that a crap ton of people will line up to work for lower than 30... oh wait they already have.

That's VR's strategy position.

So, VR fucked up by not having a higher base wage and taking care of patrols and negotiating a better contract before this dispute came to a head.

But the patrollers do not actually have all the power. They do have decent bargaining position though and hopefully that results in a contract that is a win for the patrollers!

Because VR corporate undoubtedly allocates season pass revenue to each location based on skier days.

Oh I'd bet that is not the case. There is a corrolation sure.

[rideit]

Dumb Q, but what were VailCo’s profits/debt in 2024?

[skaredshtles]

Dumb Q, but what were VailCo’s profits/debt in 2024?

https://www.google.com/finance/quote/MTN:NYSE

[skaredshtles]

<snip> but every job to unionize and threaten to strike.

Sounds good.

[summit]

Sounds good.

Which is why VR won't incentivize it by caving to wild demands like the (unasked in the real world but proposed in this thread) $30/hr. They aren't even caving to reasonable demands they should have granted before this labor dispute that would have avoided this labor dispute... then because of greed, and now because they don't want to incentivize unionization.

That said, Unions are NOT all roses and unicorn glitter. I was in one. Had some upsides, but plenty of downsides. The seniority structure for vacation weeks was brutal, but not as brutal watching the union put the exact same effort into defending good employees unfairly in trouble as they put in into defending absolutely shitty coworkers who legitimately fucked up so that you were still stuck with them and carrying all the workload they didn't. Shit workers most definitely were protected. Unions were political and it was also shitty watching your money go to pay a union steward to 90% of the time sit on his fat ass in a top floor office making more money than you to watch movies and wait around just in case maybe a member needed something.

[rideit]

Ok, so their profit margin was 8% in 2024. Maybe if they modified the maximum dividend payout, there could be crumbs left for labor?
(Not necessarily a serious proposal).

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
That said, Unions are NOT all roses and unicorn glitter.

You're not wrong. Still better than labor getting fucked since 1980.

FTR - I've never been in a union, but it sure seemed to work well for the German folks that worked for my last company. And they were white collar IT folks. <shrug>

[BFD]

$30/hr is far above what other low-barrier-to-entry jobs-with-perks start at, and almost double what new EMTs make in other jobs. That means that a crap ton of people will line up to work for lower than 30... oh wait they already have.
Maybe there is a line of people lined up to take these ski patrol jobs. I do not know. Why not have an apprenticeship set up. Patrol person works first three years at an entry wage. That could be 20 or 25 dollars what ever parties can agree upon. After that significant raises can take place. Workers will have incentive to stick around and the area will end up with a smoother running operation with an experienced work force. Health insurance is a tough one. in my opinion the best way to get around that and weaken unions is a single payer system. But until then it is an important part of a contract.
I worked heavy construction for a long time. I saw lots of laborers with all different skill levels. They all made more than what the ski patrol is asking. The patrol people at my ski area work as hard as any of those workers. They deserve to be paid comparable. Even an unskilled laborer that can perform their duties unsupervised is an asset and should be paid accordingly.

[frorider]

As a half (assed) Swiss I’ve been familiar with the German model my whole life & I wish we had something less simplistic than the ‘us vs them’ mentality I see in labor relations here. In Germany companies with over 2000 employees have labor elected officials serving on the company board. How much reduction in stock dividends is appropriate to enable appropriate Vail wages for new & experienced employees?—that’s a great topic for a Board with skin in all aspects of the game.

[BmillsSkier]

https://townlift.com/2025/01/park-ci...WfSGOpGTpBsmVA

Park City mayor gets involved. ...tells Vail to settle labor dispute. That's gold. Bwahahahaha

Let me know when Gwyneth steps into the ring.