Do you detune? Why or why not?

[TAFKALVS]

You ski in Colorado right?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Hey Musty, I’m not threatened at all I know what I like and I like de tuned skis or rather I like to tune my skis with portions or all of the edges less sharp or even dull. Again, just because I like my skis like that doesn’t make me right and you wrong. It’s like preferring fatter tires over less fat tires on a mtb, it’s personal preference.

I will say that if you don’t think that a sharp square or acute edge bevel feels different than an edge that’s been dulled slightly, slightly rounded or aggressively rounded, I’m at a loss for an explanation. Soft three dimensional snow behaves like a liquid, why don’t surf boards, wake boards and water skis have square or sharp edges? The only reason to have edges at all on skis and snow boards is to negotiate firm snow.


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[Mustonen]

You ski in Colorado right?

I’ve never actually skied in CO, something I’ll be fixing this year though.

Hey Musty, I’m not threatened at all I know what I like and I like de tuned skis or rather I like to tune my skis with portions or all of the edges less sharp or even dull. Again, just because I like my skis like that doesn’t make me right and you wrong. It’s like preferring fatter tires over less fat tires on a mtb, it’s personal preference.




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Dude, I never said anything was right or wrong.

Preferences can usually tell something of a story, though. For example, I have fairly even weighting on both skis and apply a lot of steering based on skiing full reverse fat skis for so many years. But I also don’t achieve extreme edge angles and I’m not sure my edging is really all that powerful like our friends Jupiter or tafk. Maybe something for me to think about as I go.

Oh, and I definitely feel it. I don’t like it. I want to feel edge engagement along the entire ski and I don’t like the tips and tails washing out that much differently than the area underfoot. I don’t expect you to hang on every word I write, but did you read anything I wrote? You don’t have to answer that, it’s rhetorical, I don’t care.

[Ørion]

Throw me in the "I don't understand intentionally detuning" camp. Seems analogous to intentionally keeping a knife dull.

Rounding out rocker/early rise so it doesn't hook up unexpectedly in funky 3D chop makes sense but why intentionally dull the edge that is supposed to bite? One can feather the hookup by playing with your platform angle and release the tip/tail as needed by shifting your weight. Side slips, pivot slips, whirly birds, stivots, etc are all easily accomplished on decently sharpened skis with no detuning necessary.

All my skis, from 77 to 116 underfoot, get the same 3° edge tune because I'm lazy. For the soft snow skis I might go longer between sharpenings since it doesn't matter as much, but I never detune.

[Mustonen]

Throw me in the "I don't understand intentionally detuning" camp. Seems analogous to intentionally keeping a knife dull.

One can feather the hookup by playing with your platform angle and release the tip/tail as needed by shifting your weight.

I feel the same re: “dumbing down” a ski but I don’t mean to make this such a value driven thing… which is where we keep trying to go? I don’t really think it’s always or usually or frequently that, either. I have in years past, on shitty skis, detuned tips and tails to get through the day, but that was a function of some really terrible hardware and my own skill level at the time. Which isn’t to suggest that those who detune religiously have the same deficit in equipment or skill level.

Also, thanks for the comment on feathering the hookup. I wasn’t sure how to articulate that either. Again though, magic unicorn, I don’t mean to suggest a right or a wrong.

[TAFKALVS]

Where do you ski?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

A passive de tune on your soft snow skis Orion.

Musty, I read your posts and to me and others it does kinda sounds like a right or wrong issue for you. I ski fat reverse camber skis and I like less sharp edges on the sidecut portion of the ski except for the portion underfoot from the tip of the binding to the tail of the binding. I ski reverse skis differently than my cambered skis. I think of being on hockey skates on reverse skis.


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[Mofro261]

Tail riders won't notice a detune.

Centered stance and reverse skis is also less noticeable since one id usually skiing on a shorter effective edge.

Where it is most pronounced is in skiers who really like a forward stance and are actively trying to drive from the tips. Even here one needs a consistent hard surface to get it right. Fully sharp edges in soft snow cause the ski to "peel" and track off line. There is reason the best WC SL skiers come from the east and Midwest while the best speed skiers are generally from mtn west and west coast, snow consistency in the west is hard to come by.

A similar question could be asked:

In what snow and turn shapes does one benefit engaging the very tip and tail of the ski?

A: There is only 1 I can think of, short radius SL skis on hard icy snow. Are you heartcarving?

All other skis gs, sg, dh, are blended bevels at the tip and tail to reduce engagement where it isn't wanted.
Why? Check out a slo mo of a ski flexing at speed. The tips bounce alot and if the tip edge engages , it does not help the skier maintain turn shape but will cause deflection off the desired line. Also large radius turns have a lot more time between turns ergo rapid engagement isn't needed or desirable. Think back to how horrible parabolic skis were.

Most rec skis should not be tuned through the tip, period. I guess if I only skied on ice I'd probably need some SL type skis too.

That you prefer a full tune through the tip and tail just tells us you don't get on fresh snow all that often.

No hate, just truths.

[toast2266]

Throw me in the "I don't understand intentionally detuning" camp. Seems analogous to intentionally keeping a knife dull.

If I only want the knife to cut the tomato, I want it sharp. If I want the knife to slide diagonally across the surface of the tomato without catching, but also sometimes cut it, then I want it a bit more dull.

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[Ørion]

A passive de tune on your soft snow skis Orion.

Musty, I read your posts and to me and others it does kinda sounds like a right or wrong issue for you. I ski fat reverse camber skis and I like less sharp edges on the sidecut portion of the ski except for the portion underfoot from the tip of the binding to the tail of the binding. I ski reverse skis differently than my cambered skis. I think of being on hockey skates on reverse skis.


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Oh yeah, definitely. In a very silly sense, every run after a tune, past the first two turns, is "passively detuning" the ski. In that context though, the "passive detune" is something I tolerate more on soft snow skis but not a desired state.

Similar to waxing in my mind. A minty fresh wax is ideal and the rest of the decision making process is how much "dewaxing" is tolerable in relation to opportunity-cost.

What I don't know could fill the Library of Alexandria though and I try to be mindful of "the unknown unknowns" so this entire discourse is fascinating.

[Ørion]

If I only want the knife to cut the tomato, I want it sharp. If I want the knife to slide diagonally across the surface of the tomato without catching, but also sometimes cut it, then I want it a bit more dull.

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I realize that no analogy is perfect, but if you're sliding the knife across the surface of the tomato in the manner that a ski edge interacts with snow and it's catching, that sounds like a hanging burr issue, not a sharpness problem, right?

[toast2266]

I realize that no analogy is perfect, but if you're sliding the knife across the surface of the tomato in the manner that a ski edge interacts with snow and it's catching, that sounds like a hanging burr issue, not a sharpness problem, right?

I don't think so. Sticking with this highly imperfect analogy, if you angle a knife so the blade is leading, a sharp knife will be more likely to dig in and catch. A dull knife will be more likely to slide.

Same with a ski. You angle it as you lean. A sharp edge will be more inclined to catch. Which is what you want if you're trying to carve a turn. But it's not what you want if you're trying to smear / slide a turn.

Some skis I mostly want to carve, so I want sharp edges on them. Some skis I mostly want to smear, so I want duller edges on them.

I also have a theory that sharp edges are preferable more often in a continental snowpack, but that's a different can of worms.

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[TAFKALVS]

I also have a theory that sharp edges are preferable more often in a continental snowpack, but that's a different can of worms.

I think that’s very true. I think a lot of design and tune issues are magnified in high density wet snow conditions. In dry continental snow the ski has less grip and has less forces applied to it.

[Ørion]

To use some ski jargon, that appears to be a question of platform angle. If one wants to smear a turn, flattening the skis releases the edges regardless of tune. That's how racers perform a stivot before the apex of a turn despite having high angulation/inclination and very sharp edges.

This might be my "unknown unknown" but why would someone want to maintain a sharp platform angle but have the skis releasing?

[EWG]

The lazy among us just sharpen to the contact point ends and don’t tune up into the tip and tail.

Passive detune I guess. Also gets me done sooner.

[toast2266]

To use some ski jargon, that appears to be a question of platform angle. If one wants to smear a turn, flattening the skis releases the edges regardless of tune. That's how racers perform a stivot before the apex of a turn despite having high angulation/inclination and very sharp edges.

This might be my "unknown unknown" but why would someone want to maintain a sharp platform angle but have the skis releasing?

A duller edge just means the range of angles where the ski will release is wider. On a smooth, groomed run, it's easy to flatten the ski and release the edge at will. In bumpy unsmooth snow, flattening the ski relative to the snow requires the ski to be at a constantly changing angle. Oftentimes, the tip would need to be at one angle while the tail would need to be at another to be slide-able (which, incidentally, is why torsional stiffness can make a big difference in how a wider ski feels). Since a duller edge broadens the range of angles where the ski will slide, it makes it far easier to drift the ski in dynamic snow.

[couloirman]

I have a confession to make. I have never once done a single thing to my edges. No tuning, no detuning, just a base wax a few times a year when they get sticky. I think it’s an overrated practice

[TAFKALVS]

I have a confession to make. I have never once done a single thing to my edges. No tuning, no detuning, just a base wax a few times a year when they get sticky. I think it’s an overrated practice

But if you’ve never done it, how would you know?

Also, where do you ski?

[2FUNKY]

Everything I’ve never done is overrated…


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[TAFKALVS]

I demand everyone posting in this thread share a video of them skiing a bumped up run on a moderate pitch black diamond, followed by a video of them skiing a high speed groomer so we can analyze if they are in the top 1% of skiers who need a detune.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I never used to do anything but set the edges, de burr and wax seldomly. I met an old WC tuner here and we started talking about tuning and waxing. I started doing what he said he did for a tune and it was a marked improvement over what I had been doing. Basically shape the tip edges from the point of contact out to the tip and tail. Wax often especially at temperature extremes. It makes a difference.

I started experimenting with fatter soft snow skis extending further into the ski and dulling to various degrees. It can really change how a ski feels, positive or negative and it’s totally subjective.


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[XXX-er]

I demand everyone posting in this thread share a video of them skiing a bumped up run on a moderate pitch black diamond, followed by a video of them skiing a high speed groomer so we can analyze if they are in the top 1% of skiers who need a detune.

how bout we just post videos of us all fucking your mom ?

[Marshal Olson]

Fascinating thread... a couple quick thoughts!

(1) Tuning is a bit more art than science IMO -- or at least about feel -- and not everyone has the same taste. For example, my wife and I like alot of the same music, but I ALWAYS am down for slayer and she NEVER is. That isn't a right or wrong thing, it's a different taste thing.

(2) Skis and how they ride can get radically altered based on their edge prep. from literally unskiable to super hooked up and edgy to super loose and drifty... all while being "tuned". its more a matter of mathcing the style and desired traits to the ski and how they are to be used.

(3) There are lots of elements of tuning -- base structure, wax, edge bevels, polishing, burnishing, etc -- all designed to get the right mix of glide, edge, and slide for a given skier in certain use cases.

(4) There isn't always a "one-setup-per-person" thing. For example, I put more aggressive tunes on my looser powder skis so they are fun getting back to the lift (ie my HB122 is closer to a gs race ski tune since its super rockered and soft and insanely easy to throw sideways anyhow) where the big burly super chargers get more buttered out (ie my personal pair of Fl105 had closer to a park ski tune, since I was mainly skiing them in the moguls and tight trees). On my "high pressure" skis, the snow is often super grabby from high wind, so I don't run those skis as aggressively (ie 2-3 times as many passes with a gummi, more base edge bevel in the transition of the camber pocket to rocker line), as its way easier to hook an edge on that snow. This isn't "detuning", but rather "tuning for conditions" IMO!

(5) All conventional wisdom from every tuning savant I've ever chatted with, is that outside the wide points, they all advocate hand beveling the base edge and rounding the edge outside the widepoints. it makes the skis wildly more predictable in variable/punchy snow. Skis are not able to engage the edge more than 1-2cm past the wide points, but based on how machines work, there is typically very little bevel and a often more stone structure in the base edge out here -- and some times a pretty aggressive hanging burr on skis with full wrap metal edges. This isn't detuning, it is just proper ski prep!

(6) I'd argue that tuning is intentionally getting the right amount of sharpness, bevels, etc in the right areas of your ski for your style and conditions

[toast2266]

I ALWAYS am down for slayer and she NEVER is.

grounds for divorce.

[Ørion]

A duller edge just means the range of angles where the ski will release is wider. On a smooth, groomed run, it's easy to flatten the ski and release the edge at will. In bumpy unsmooth snow, flattening the ski relative to the snow requires the ski to be at a constantly changing angle. Oftentimes, the tip would need to be at one angle while the tail would need to be at another to be slide-able (which, incidentally, is why torsional stiffness can make a big difference in how a wider ski feels). Since a duller edge broadens the range of angles where the ski will slide, it makes it far easier to drift the ski in dynamic snow.

Interesting point that I'll chew on. Obviously skiing is all about blended effects but in the broadest sense I have viewed the base-edge angle as the biggest factor for "willingness to hook-up", with side-edge angle being "strength once hooked-up" and sharpness/polish being the "quality (effectiveness?) of the hook-up" so to speak.

In that context, I wager detuning would be more forgiving during an accidental edge engagement in variable snow (after all, that is why I dull the edges on the tips). Given the opportunity and need, I think I would rather have a more forgiving base-edge set at the shop and keep the edges sharp. Ultimately I'd love to have my carving skis set with 0.5°, frontside at 0.7°, all mountain at 1°, and powder skis at (maybe) ~1.5° for this reason.

Understandably, one works with the tools on hand (again, after all, that is effectively why I'm dulling my tips instead of having variable base angles) and the drawbacks to detuning would be less noticeable on a soft-snow oriented ski .