BOA Love & Hate

[FloridaSnow]

Yes, that is what I said. I’ve never said they’re terrible. I don’t buy that they’re apples and oranges. It’s literally the same thing. I have boas on a lot of my gear. They’re neat. They’re never necessary, and I’ve yet to find a use case where they’re an upgrade. On something like a ski boot, I don’t like the entire fit being dependent on one closure system. One buckle breaks? Not a big deal. Smash the boa and it falls off - now your whole foot is sloshing until you can get it fixed.

What does it solve vs a buckle?

How am I one of the few on here who doesn’t get it.

Man am I gonna feel silly if I ever hop on this train..




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well ya they’re apples to oranges. It’s literally not the same thing and that’s the point. All the people like yourself who keep commenting about the negatives of prior boas which absolutely don’t apply to the alpine boa are beating a dead horse. It isn’t the same system.

No one has said they’re necessary, but they are better than buckles. Both in fit and function as well as strength. Boa is an upgrade in fit over buckles, they create a better wrap which buckles cannot match and anyone who as used them has confirmed, they’re an upgrade in strength proven by the failure rate of buckles to boa in testing with buckles failing more with less effort, they’re an upgrade in repair and replacement as the parts are 100% free and compatible across all boa boots unlike buckles. If the boa knob falls off it clicks right back into place. That’s the genius of the design. If you knock a buckle off or break it then it’s gone. Not the case with boa.

you’re one of the only ones who doesn’t get it because you’ve never held or used the system. So you’re basing your comments on prior systems which again is apples oranges.

[FloridaSnow]

The need to keep fresh and keep sales up. Tell them it’s the next thing….

Boa has been failing for decades on snowboard boots/ cycling shoes/ helmets etc…

Only time will tell if that’s the outcome in ski boots but one thing is for sure new Boa ownership. It’s now a publicly traded company under a conglomerate operating for profit. More resources and $ to push the older tech into an untapped market….

it’s a completely redesigned system based solely around alpine ski boots. It’s been tested for years at this point. It’s been proven to be more reliable and take more force to break it over a buckle. You can be stuck in your old ways but everything you stated is still false.

[Skip Dooley]

well ya they’re apples to oranges. It’s literally not the same thing and that’s the point. All the people like yourself who keep commenting about the negatives of prior boas which absolutely don’t apply to the alpine boa are beating a dead horse. It isn’t the same system.

No one has said they’re necessary, but they are better than buckles. Both in fit and function as well as strength. Boa is an upgrade in fit over buckles, they create a better wrap which buckles cannot match and anyone who as used them has confirmed, they’re an upgrade in strength proven by the failure rate of buckles to boa in testing with buckles failing more with less effort, they’re an upgrade in repair and replacement as the parts are 100% free and compatible across all boa boots unlike buckles. If the boa knob falls off it clicks right back into place. That’s the genius of the design. If you knock a buckle off or break it then it’s gone. Not the case with boa.

you’re one of the only ones who doesn’t get it because you’ve never held or used the system. So you’re basing your comments on prior systems which again is apples oranges.

Ok dude. We’re just gonna have to agree to disagree on that. Either way, hope you get some good pow under those boa wrapped feet.


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[FloridaSnow]

Ok dude. We’re just gonna have to agree to disagree on that. Either way, hope you get some good pow under those boa wrapped feet.


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you can’t disagree on something you’ve never tried. Go give them a feel and a try on then come back and we can talk about that agreeing to disagree

[2FUNKY]

Holding out for quad boa

Pshht. Reach around boa is the next thing. You heard it here.


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[GoldenBC]

Hey there. Bootfitter who sells a lot of boa boots here.

Lower boa is completely unnecessary. It works differently than buckles but there are arguments in which it can be said it’s worse (lack of independent control). It really isn’t a game changer and I’d argue it’s not worth the $100. Boa breaks, I’ve seen it. Once. But there’s also not a lot of boa and it hasn’t been mass available for long. Buckles do break. I fix one every other day. But there’s also are way more buckles out there and way more old buckles. Boas are only two years old.

Then there is the execution of boa. K2 does the best job of letting the boot close in a unique way. I bet that toe dam system would improve buckle fit as well.

Upper cuff boa could actually be more impressive than lower. Being a dynamic part of the boot, there is some cool qualities that could show up. But also you don’t get independent control. Apparently it’s not needed but until I try it, that’s just marketing to me. Does my boot gaiter go over the boa? If so, that will really piss me off when adjusting my powerstrap.

All this talk about progression of ski boots and the most important thing is still fit. If companies improved their fit, that would be way more of an advancement.

[TAFKALVS]

All this talk about progression of ski boots and the most important thing is still fit. If companies improved their fit, that would be way more of an advancement.

Instead of all these doodad new closures, why for the love of god can boot companies not make a freaking half size boot! My choice is either slopping around in a 27.5 or size down to a 26.5 that requires a bunch of boot work to fit and if my liner isn’t perfectly sitting in the heel pocket (pushing me forward) I’m losing a toenail. Why do I have choose between a 304mm BSL and a 314mm BSL?

It’s super aggravating.

[XavierD]

I think the biggest advantage of BOA is it provides brands cover to raise the price of boots $50-$100.

[gaijin]

This thread was a lot of back forth (from me and others) about much ado about nothing until Lange decides what they’re gonna do.

Let’s face it— if Lange RS goes BOA, we’ll all drink the poison. If not, BOA’s dead.

Conversation over.


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[onenerdykid]

Instead of all these doodad new closures, why for the love of god can boot companies not make a freaking half size boot! My choice is either slopping around in a 27.5 or size down to a 26.5 that requires a bunch of boot work to fit and if my liner isn’t perfectly sitting in the heel pocket (pushing me forward) I’m losing a toenail. Why do I have choose between a 304mm BSL and a 314mm BSL?

It’s super aggravating.

It's cost vs. ROI thing. When any brand launches a size run of boots from 22-32 (without the half sizes), it currently costs in the vicinity of 1.0-1.5 million Euros for just the shell and cuff lasts & molds (not including liner tooling, boot boards, grip pads, buckles, power straps, etc.). If you add half size shells to that, it would add a minimum of 600-700k Euro to that total, easily pushing things over the 2million mark, especially when everything is accounted for. These costs would have to go somewhere and they would certainly not be absorbed by the boot brand. Some people, like yourself, might pay the higher retail price, but the vast majority wouldn't. Retailers would be pissed because now they have to stock more options and manage more complexity, which is already aggravatingly difficult. Brands would hate it for the same reason. But ultimately, brands just aren't given that much CAPEX to launch ski boots with. The ROI would simply not match the cost of do it and the idea dies at the business case.

[GoldenBC]

But why not just make your current size run 3-5mm longer? Keep it the exact same fit but stretch the toe box? The biggest selling feature of a Salomon boot is that it almost fits a half size bigger.

Literally, tight ankle, wide forefoot, wide toes box, couple mm extra length. That is the million dollar boot. I don’t care how it closes. All we do bootfitting is tighten the rear foot and looosen the forefoot. All. Day. Long.

The Hawx ultra is the closest fit to that but the ramp down on the end of the toe box ruins the fit for many. It is the easiest to sell ski boot that I’ve had available to sell in twenty years. Of course the plastic is too thin though.

The revolution is in fit and nothing else. Fit is what people feel.

[onenerdykid]

But why not just make your current size run 3-5mm longer? Keep it the exact same fit but stretch the toe box? The biggest selling feature of a Salomon boot is that it almost fits a half size bigger.

Literally, tight ankle, wide forefoot, wide toes box, couple mm extra length. That is the million dollar boot. I don’t care how it closes. All we do bootfitting is tighten the rear foot and looosen the forefoot. All. Day. Long.

The Hawx ultra is the closest fit to that but the ramp down on the end of the toe box ruins the fit for many. It is the easiest to sell ski boot that I’ve had available to sell in twenty years. Of course the plastic is too thin though.

The revolution is in fit and nothing else. Fit is what people feel.

Be patient. It's coming.

[Self Jupiter]

[GoldenBC]

The extra length?

As I said, the Hawx ultra fit is the best advancement in bootfitting in 15 years. I’m just blown away that others aren’t copying it.

[twat]

Summary! : )
Golden says: nothing changed except 2 buckles are a strap now.

Florida says: better fit around the forefoot as the shell wraps around.

[aanev]

Be patient. It's coming.

@onenerdykid, is there a double boa Ultra XTD on the drawing board?

[Brewski2]

I've been a boot fitter for 10 years. BOA is a fit solution for some people. Not a performance enhancer really. BUT, if a boot fits you better then theoretically performance is increased as well. I tried on 5 boots this fall and the one that felt the best for my foot was the Salomon Supra 130 Boa. I have a medium high instep and widish forefoot. I really like the wrap feeling over the top of my foot without any pressure points. Boot skis awesome for me. Its not for everyone.
Phil said it best. Don't not try BOA and don't buy BOA just cuz.
I'm looking forward to trying a double BOA boot later this month.

[byates1]

Pshht. Reach around boa is the next thing. You heard it here.


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I recently took all the lugnuts off my van and replaced w harbor freight boa. Seems fine

[tenB]

I recently took all the lugnuts off my van and replaced w harbor freight boa. Seems fine

NASCAR will be using boa soon

[Doremite]

Consider me a romantic of the annoyance and satisfaction of the boot buckle.

[coldfeet]

You heard it here first.

[gaijin]

This is like six minute abs.


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[halliday]

It's cost vs. ROI thing. When any brand launches a size run of boots from 22-32 (without the half sizes), it currently costs in the vicinity of 1.0-1.5 million Euros for just the shell and cuff lasts & molds (not including liner tooling, boot boards, grip pads, buckles, power straps, etc.). If you add half size shells to that, it would add a minimum of 600-700k Euro to that total, easily pushing things over the 2million mark, especially when everything is accounted for. These costs would have to go somewhere and they would certainly not be absorbed by the boot brand. Some people, like yourself, might pay the higher retail price, but the vast majority wouldn't. Retailers would be pissed because now they have to stock more options and manage more complexity, which is already aggravatingly difficult. Brands would hate it for the same reason. But ultimately, brands just aren't given that much CAPEX to launch ski boots with. The ROI would simply not match the cost of do it and the idea dies at the business case.

Manufacturers. Retailers. ROI. What about the ski boot wearing public? Sure, there will be a lot of boot buyers who accept the whole size scheme and are willing to settle. Lots of skiers are not willing to settle, myself included, and will not buy the boots which will lead to more unhappy retailers. Who cares about retailers that sing the song and do the dance in order to meet the mfgr ROI? Give me a boot (Lange, please) that builds boots in half sizes with buckles.

[TAFKALVS]

It’s interesting that the excuse is always that it’s too expensive to do half sizes but when I go and look at atomics boot lineup there’s 48? unique SKUs. Same with Lange. Seems like you could eliminate some of the redundant models (like why does Lange make an 85, 95, and 100 flex in the same boot, or Atomic seemingly random variations of the Hawx boots) and instead have a simplified lines with 1/2 sizes?

For me again it’s a choice between a boot that requires toe punches for length or a boot that I’m swimming in because the last and instep height increase substantially between a 26.5 and a 27.5

Or how about this, perhaps a gentlemen’s agreement (at least within a conglomerate like Amer or Rossi group) to have half sizes for one brand and whole sizes for another. Or if that’s a bridge too far, Atomic 26.5 BSL is a 306 and Salomon’s 26.5 BSL is a 310 with corresponding internal length. Same with Rossi vs Lange.

Yeah maybe you don’t do that in rental boots but maybe at least on the top tier alpine boots?

[singlesline]

I kinda want boa lowers because my bottom buckles are usually very low tension which means they are always getting flipped up and unlatched by the snow off piste.

I don’t know about better fit, but that seems like enough reason for me to be happy with them vs lower buckles that basically aren’t doing anything and spend half their time unlocked.

Upper boa sounds intriguing. Maybe it will work, maybe it won’t, but conceptually it sounds possible.