Climate Change

[Trackhead]

I do talk politics and environment with my neighbors. I'm surrounded by homes with enormous lawns; I offer to give them trees to plant. I've gotten 1 taker.

We've planted three aspens, two pines, and two mountain ash on our lot since moving in three years ago. But I'd take you up on the offer if you want to send a donation to Montana for us to plant more.

[Flounder]

Why belittle Montana

Bloody hell, I didn’t belittle Montana. Your original post said you don’t see anyone doing anything at a personal level other than stereotypical comments about immigrants. I posted what I’ve done on a personal level and pointed out others are doing the same. I then suggested that maybe you aren’t seeing it in your area of Montana but it’s happening elsewhere.

Since then you’ve pointed out that contrary to your original post, you see lots of individual action in your area and freaked out that I was elitist for suggesting rural Montana wasn’t doing anything. All I was going on was your post saying you didn’t see anything being done in your area. No intent to belittle Montana.

[Trackhead]

All I was going on was your post saying you didn’t see anything being done in your area. No intent to belittle Montana.

Context is difficult to interpret on forums, sorry.

On a side note, I'm saving money to pay cash for a new car, was looking at RAV4 Prime, plug in hybrid. Doesn't qualify for fed rebate because it is not assembled in US apparently, yet meets the KWH requirements. That kinda blockade is part of the problem for EV adoption. The rebate would put the price similar to regular RAV4, a financial incentive to buy. I guess it's the "Inflation Reduction Act" (Signed by Biden) which apparently amended the fed rebate to require "final assembly" in the United States to qualify for rebate.

So we do good for the economy on one end, and bad for EV adoption (in the short term) on the other end.

[bodywhomper]

It’s interesting, where I live, I try to engage my neighbors and local friends in having less trees and vegetation, in general, and the efficacy and efficiency of broadcast burning for property maintenance. There’s also effort to educate about landscaping and reduce amount of several beautiful invasive. All to reduce wildfire hazard in my neighborhood. Catastrophic wildfires in California result in a lot of emissions (CO2 and more toxic gases from structural fires). And rebuilding neighborhoods or relocating people (currently) results in a lot of new emissions. The federal and state government is trying to throw money at this and focus on disadvantaged communities.

[k2skier112]

I don't talk politics with my neighbors, do you?

Something is better than nothing, right? Why belittle Montana as being slower on the uptake of solar?

My neighborhood is mostly new homes, wealthy people moving here from Bozeman, retired. These are the people in my community that have $25,000 of disposable income to invest in solar. Also, solar and latitude are a thing, notice southern states have higher adoption rates. Why is that? Return on investment is easier in Arizona than it is in Montana.

In terms of EV car adoption, Montana is a big state, it's cold as fuck here, there isn't a shit ton of EV infrastructure. Lithium cars inarguably are challenged by distances, and cold. Maybe that has some influence on adoption, as well as income. Most of the states with higher EV use are also states with higher household income.

Do low income people rent, or own homes? Most rent. Would you want to invest whatever $$ in home charging station in a rental home, an apartment, a condo in a place you might only live for a few years? What is the $$ incentive to invest in effecient home appliances/tools for the renter?

There is a bigger picture than politics at play here.

I like MT, I never "belittled it". Just pointing out that you live in an area that has far more than the average amount of EV's or solar panels in MT as a whole

I even showed you the stats. MT is very hudge and diverse. I'd consider moving there if retirement taxes weren't a sideways move from OR

I should ski Whitefish before I make any absolute statements tho

[Buster Highmen]

It’s interesting, where I live, I try to engage my neighbors and local friends in having less trees and vegetation, in general, and the efficacy and efficiency of broadcast burning for property maintenance. There’s also effort to educate about landscaping and reduce amount of several beautiful invasive. All to reduce wildfire hazard in my neighborhood. Catastrophic wildfires in California result in a lot of emissions (CO2 and more toxic gases from structural fires). And rebuilding neighborhoods or relocating people (currently) results in a lot of new emissions. The federal and state government is trying to throw money at this and focus on disadvantaged communities.

We live in different climates.

Our house is located on acreage that was logged in the 50s or 60s and still has a few huDge cedars, sitka spruces, hemlocks and doug firs. That was native, but lots of developments around here culled the big trees and put in ridiculous mansions with sprawling lawns that don't absorb the rain and radiate heat in the summer. Xeriscaping for us means something different.

[bodywhomper]

I understand and that was the point that I was trying (unsuccessfully?) to make.

“there is the real possibility of creating stand structures with no natural analog, as low-density or low-biomass stands likely have little precedent in moist westside forests.” https://foreststewardshipnotes.wordp...est-structure/

Have mags been following the new DOI desert leases for solar farms and debate by some academics, like Dustin Mulvaney, that there are better and less destructive solutions that could be faster to implement, like PV on rooftops and fallowed fields. Sry if already discussed, I am not keeping up on this thread.

[Buster Highmen]

I understand and that was the point that I was trying (unsuccessfully?) to make.

“there is the real possibility of creating stand structures with no natural analog, as low-density or low-biomass stands likely have little precedent in moist westside forests.” https://foreststewardshipnotes.wordp...est-structure/

It's just nuts to see these developments go in where they take a beautiful stand of what's likely second growth, still 2 to 4 foot diameter, 60 to 100 foot tall trees, and mow it all down and replace it with dense housing with lawns that require watering. In summer those neighborhoods are 5 -8 degrees warmer than ours which has a few decent stands left. So, we plant trees and offer them to the people with the big lawns, who don't see their lawns as a problem. It's just another little thing we try.

Have mags been following the new DOI desert leases for solar farms and debate by some academics, like Dustin Mulvaney, that there are better and less destructive solutions that could be faster to implement, like PV on rooftops and fallowed fields. Sry if already discussed, I am not keeping up on this thread.

I made that point before, that when people say the desert is ugly, I think the ugliest thing is a housing development and that's where the solar panels should go. Less line loss, less environmental disturbance.

[bodywhomper]

I grew up in SoCal burbs. The culture for green water intensive lawns is relatively old. My father grew up with it and my mother conformed to it (she grew up with most soil space used for food growing). My folks’ home has a native garden that doesn’t get watered, some established non-native trees, fruit trees, and a food garden. There are only a few homes in their subdivision with a drought tolerant native-type landscaping. There are local economic incentives for people to replant their landscaping in this manner. In the US, it’s going to be a big cultural lift to shift away from the grassy lawns.

In California, there’s a newly state and federally protected species, the foothill yellow legged frog. One of the reasons the species is in jeopardy is the manipulation of the hydraulic cycles in California due to water development for human consumption and for efforts to conserve protected anadromous fish.

[mcski]

I grew up in the grassy suburbs of LA as well. It completely blew my mind the first time we went to visit relatives in Indiana and none of them had sprinklers. There’s no way lawn grass would grow in SoCal without them but they all had beautiful lawns. I think back in the old days it was a way to show you had money as the English estates all had great big lawns. Grass in SoCal and many areas is an enormous water waste, but it pales in comparison to the water pilaging taking place in the Central Valley by farmers growing water intensive crops like almonds. I love almonds but they waste more water than any other crop in CA

[old goat]

In Sacramento ("City of Trees") the neighborhoods with big old trees are ten degrees cooler than newer or poorer areas. People in the treed neighborhoods try to put in drought tolerant landscaping but the trees still need water and the drough tolerant stuff doesn't do well in the shade. And lawns lower temperature to--by transpiration if not by shade.

If you live in a place like LV, with no trees or lawns then go with the drought tolerant landscape (ie rocks) but humans will be leaving the SW soon anyway. (Sacramento too.)

[bodywhomper]

Lots of data supporting trees and shade in urban and suburban areas for improved quality of human life.

California hydraulic cycle and growing stuff, I think it’s difference compared to the iron belt and the East was popularized in the book East of Eden. Im not sure if there was a widely read account of it before that book was published.

I met an old forester that wrote a book about how the developed areas of the Sierra ended up with so many big and older nonnative trees. Basically, they were imported as fast growing shade trees by immigrants to the area that the immigrants were familiar with. Shade trees were needed to replace all the native trees that were logged for various reasons (eg structures and heating). My understanding is that a similar story can be told throughout older developed areas of Northern California.

[Buster Highmen]

Funny but the hippies that built our place in 1982 put in a sequoia which is now about 70 feet tall. Maybe that was visionary?

I put in natives, red cedars, douglas firs, sitka spruce and hemlocks, though the hemlocks have suffered from the heat of recent years and a few have died.

[PB]

Trees are all well and good, but they require much more maintenance than most people realize, especially in residential/suburban areas. And Dog save us from city planners who think they know what trees to plant and where, and then decide that they're no longer responsible for them. As iconic as redwoods are, they should never be planted in the CA Central Valley.

[abraham]

Of course redwoods aren't a good fit, the Central Valley demands almond trees.

[old goat]

Trees are all well and good, but they require much more maintenance than most people realize, especially in residential/suburban areas. And Dog save us from city planners who think they know what trees to plant and where, and then decide that they're no longer responsible for them. As iconic as redwoods are, they should never be planted in the CA Central Valley.

Also save us from developers like the one who in 1930 planted plane trees directly over the sewer lines.

[xyz]

Imagine what could have been accomplished for the climate if we used the 200 billion sent to defence contractors for the war we provoked in Ukraine for green energy projects.


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[Buzzworthy]

Imagine you saying something, anything, worthwhile.

[SnowMachine]

Change is hard, for sure. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. We just need to take those first steps.

When your furnace is ready to be replaced, replace it with a heat pump. When you need a new car, get an electric one. Hot water heater - yep, replace it with an electric heat pump version when it wears out. Never buy another new fossil fuel powered anything. If electric versions don't work for what you need now, buy a used, not new fossil fuel powered device and go electric when the right device is available.

There will be a lot of mining for all of this but there is modeling that overall mining will decrease by ~80% because we will be building things that last a long time, not digging up stuff to burn it.

This is just the start...

Agree. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

I have a 5 year plan that includes electric hot water and solar. A electric vehicle isn't on the plan yet, but as my kids get hand-me-down vehicles, it may become a reality. Solar and an electric car go hand in hand, for me.

[SnowMachine]

It's just nuts to see these developments go in where they take a beautiful stand of what's likely second growth, still 2 to 4 foot diameter, 60 to 100 foot tall trees, and mow it all down and replace it with dense housing with lawns that require watering. In summer those neighborhoods are 5 -8 degrees warmer than ours which has a few decent stands left. So, we plant trees and offer them to the people with the big lawns, who don't see their lawns as a problem. It's just another little thing we try.



I made that point before, that when people say the desert is ugly, I think the ugliest thing is a housing development and that's where the solar panels should go. Less line loss, less environmental disturbance.

Houses and parking lots are the perfect place for solar.

CA has a mandate requiring all new homes get solar.

https://www.decra.com/blog/how-the-c...s%20by%202030.

[rod9301]

Imagine you saying something, anything, worthwhile.

He's right though

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[old goat]

Imagine what could have been accomplished for the climate if we used the 3 trillion we spent for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.


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FIFY. OTHOH we did get rid of some of the surplus population.

[WMD]

FIFY. OTHOH we did get rid of some of the surplus population.

I don't wish OG, or anyone, harm or death and I implore you to stop celebrating the deaths of innocent people.

Better?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

[emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji637][emoji639][emoji637][emoji637][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji639]]If you really think the solution is to cut population, why don't you do your part and kill your family and yourself? Put your money where your mouth is.

Do you know what a joke is? Seriously though, population growth is a problem but if you’re lacking a sense of humor maybe you should kill yourself and your family. Typing that out feels terrible I’m not sure why it was so easy for you.




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[SnowMachine]

If you really think the solution is to cut population, why don't you do your part and kill your family and yourself? Put your money where your mouth is.

Impressive. Even for an internet forum....