50 years to the day

[Evil E]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ts-2023-10-20/

[m2711c]

First good news of this whole fucking conflict.

[boltonoutlaw]

Direct Link: https://mwi.westpoint.edu/what-can-t...hamas-tunnels/

It's important to note the problem is not just tunnels. Israel will also have to clear every house and building before going on to the next. Gaza City had a pre-war population of 800K. Fallujah was only 200K. A better size comparison is Mariupol in Ukraine.

It took the Russian army three months to seize Mariupol with a smaller defending force and no pre prepared defenses. Russia was only able to take the city by bombing 95% of the buildings and waging a brutal murderous campaign against civilians. There are 26K identified civilian deaths while satellite images of mass graves and other sources credibly suggest the actual number is 100K, one fifth the pre-war population.

It's also important to recognize a ground campaign is not about saving hostages. American Delta Force repeatedly tried to rescue hostages in Iraq. It rarely worked. Terrorists now kill hostages at the first sign of an assault. Israel can try to decapitate Hamas or can they try to negotiate the release of hostages, but the two are mostly exclusive of each other.

Thank you for that link.

My commentary on tunnels was addressing the likely futility and certain bloodbath of this exercise, and that it necessitates hand-to-hand combat to effectuate. In other words, I agree with all this above.

[Lvovsky]

Hamas leadership. Four terminated.

[Lvovsky]

European Parliament condemnsHamas attack on Israel and call for a humanitarian pause

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/...nitarian-pause

[TBS]

NYTimes editors interview Thomas Friedman about the Israel/Palestine situation

For those who don’t know who he is, Friedman is probably the most knowledgeable US journalist on the Mideast. He’s been covering the region for like 50+ years, with several Pulitzer Prizes to his credit. the interview provides good insight into the nuances of Israeli & Palestinian politics, as well as the geopolitical situation

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/20/o...smid=url-share

Paywall removed

[LongShortLong]

NYTimes editors interview Thomas Friedman about the Israel/Palestine situation

For those who don’t know who he is, Friedman is probably the most knowledgeable US journalist on the Mideast. He’s been covering the region for like 50+ years, with several Pulitzer Prizes to his credit. the interview provides good insight into the nuances of Israeli & Palestinian politics, as well as the geopolitical situation

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/20/o...smid=url-share

Paywall removed

Is Friedman the one who argued the Hama Massacre was ok, because that's how they do things in the Middle East? If so, he seems more informed than most, but has questionable morality.

Hama, not Hamas. And the massacre in the 80s. There was another massacre there recently with Russian assistance. It is a rough neighborhood.

[mcski]

Im surprised he didn’t call the article Palestine is Flat

[J. Barron DeJong]

Im surprised he didn’t call the article Palestine is Flat

I’m surprised he didn’t then them to “Suck. On. This.”

[mcski]

Im surprised he didn’t call the article Palestine is Flat

*Weird, a double post is a weird and annoying glitch, but I’ve never seen one post up hours after the original.

[TBS]

Is Friedman the one who argued the Hama Massacre was ok, because that's how they do things in the Middle East? If so, he seems more informed than most, but has questionable morality.

Hama, not Hamas. And the massacre in the 80s. There was another massacre there recently with Russian assistance. It is a rough neighborhood.

That was Hama, Syria. Assad killed everybody there then turned the town into a parking lot.

And no, Friedman didn’t condone that massacre.

[Thaleia]

Im surprised he didn’t call the article Palestine is Flat

*Weird, a double post is a weird and annoying glitch, but I’ve never seen on post up hours after the original.

Completely unrelated to the seriousness of this topic, but I've been on vBulletin boards for decades and have never seen such strange shit as here on TGR.

[MakersTeleMark]

Completely unrelated to the seriousness of this topic, but I've been on vBulletin boards for decades and have never seen such strange shit as here on TGR.

Generally, or programmatically? You've been on any other forced air run boards?

[J. Barron DeJong]

Minor in the grand scheme of what’s going on, but what in the actual fuck:



https://x.com/catchupfeed/status/171...sR_NcRK2VkCfkg

[Cisco Kid]

Wish I could put any faith into that being real. And I've seen some doctored ones, I've seen kids marches for peace painted as pro Hamas. I think. No answer to the "Why would you do this" to explain why.

[ex-powderbroker]

there are so many photos and videos of people ripping down hostage posters.

[LongShortLong]

First off, I read the transcript in the NYT piece above. It's a good read. I mostly agree with Friedman as well, and separately think he's both intelligent and follows the middle east closer than me (not because I mostly agree).

That was Hama, Syria. Assad killed everybody there then turned the town into a parking lot.

And no, Friedman didn’t condone that massacre.

The way I remembered reading his book, between the lines, is he's presenting massacre as an option and doesn't condemn it. In the same way one who's hungry might order a pizza, in Friedman's telling, one who has a rebellious city might massacre it. Given that he's writing to an American audience, where such a raw display of of power is beyond the pale, and he tells the story in a totally flat tone, I interpret that as condoning. In America, you're not allowed to condone massacres, so he's done the next closest thing. Basically saying if you're in the middle east and have this problem, here's a workable solution.

I still say he's an expert on the Middle East and his opinions are worthy.

And aside, I don't disagree that raw power is an option (including massacres), and note that some countries use it, Israel does right now, and that the US has used it long past. The US chooses not to use raw power, and arguably fails in some initiatives where going all out could produce a better peace. Compare the US in Afghanistan to Russia in Chechnya. We have some respect for international war conventions, and do not advocate e.g. the destruction of cities. Here, the raw power discussion needs to be contextualized as outside of the accepted world order.

[MakersTeleMark]

Wish I could put any faith into that being real. And I've seen some doctored ones, I've seen kids marches for peace painted as pro Hamas. I think. No answer to the "Why would you do this" to explain why.

Maybe it's on public space? I rip down and grab every sign of any sort that I see littering. Do what you want on your own property, but keep our lands clean.

[MakersTeleMark]

Here, the raw power discussion needs to be contextualized as outside of the accepted world order.

I think your characterization of "outside the accepted world order" is false.

[Cono Este]

One thing I notice absent in every question, or argument , or omitted in every rebuttal of every notable Palestinian I see on TV,, is the almost constant rocket attack since Israel left Gaza in 2005. How long until it would be chemical? Same with the hostages, they roll their eyes, and bring up some shit from 20 yrs ago.

Israel kept sending water, food and fuel into Gaza during that. And it only got worse, obviously. That’s apparently now over,, and I don’t blame them. They say they are “done”.

But once they clean out hamas, they’ll be back. The world could rebuild that place into anything, but they’ll just keep using the poor bastards of Gaza as a tool.

[gravitylover]

I've been saying that for years. Stop launching rockets and maybe some things would get better. I still don't understand why they let aid move through, I'd have said "if the Egyptians can't help then bring it in on boats, we're not helping you kill us".

[LongShortLong]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67180844
"We ran through the streets. then Israel started bombing this area non-stop, from 9pm to 7am this morning," one woman told the BBC on Friday.

The bombing there has left thousands of people with nowhere to go. On Friday another resident told the BBC people were trapped under the rubble of their homes.

"Ambulances cannot get here. People are screaming but we cannot pull them out," he said.

Surely nobody will hold a grudge, and peace will break out.

[MultiVerse]

The corollary to the arguments on the previous page is the Israel-Hamas war is still hot because Israel was overconfident in its ability to protect Israel's borders with military capacity alone. The truth is the conflict never really ended because multiple efforts to broker a peace failed and Israel underestimated Hamas.

After the Israel-Hamas war ends, and that might not be for another ten years according to what Netanyahu told Biden, there needs to be a plan to keep it from happening again. Israel can't just assume it can keep the border on low simmer relative quiet through military deterrence, especially if someone wants to argue WMDs are a threat.

After the Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Palestinian Yom Kippur War, Israel and Egypt made a peace agreement. Most at the time thought that was impossible. The Israel–Jordan peace treaty was signed in 1994. Saudi Arabia is/was on the verge of signing a peace agreement. There is still no peace between Israel and Syria & Iraq.

The rebuttal to supporters of Palestinians in the West (for many Hamas is the new Ché shirt) is the same for supporters of Israel—Israel has not solved its security problems. Israel is not going anywhere, nor should it. Neither are the Palestinians. Israel's effort to unseat Hamas *must* keep in mind some group will have to administer Gaza afterwards.

[waxman]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67180844
Surely nobody will hold a grudge, and peace will break out.

Way back when I was still in school one of my history classes had a component on regional conflicts in the Middle East and the Balkans. One of the theories I still remember is that a primary cause of continuing conflict is childcare being provided by grandparents (primarily grandmothers). The parents of whatever faction go out and try to make a living, probably working with members of whatever opposing side/religion/ethnic group with no issues. Yet grandma is at home looking after little Johnny filling their heads with stories of the evil Jews/Arabs/Serb/Croat/Armenian transgressions of the past.

[summit]

They can't afford to deal with them.

Egypt has a population of 110M. Can't help? Or won't. I'd say won't because they are already dealing with political instability caused by terrorists and they don't want any more despite the fact that Gaza was Egypt until 1967.

There are 1,900M+ Muslims in the world. ~50 nations are Muslim majority.

They can't collectively help out some refugees?

Or is it that they do NOT want the Palestinians and literally nobody does?

I really lost hope when Hamas blew up their own hospital (on accident) and then lied about it successfully torpedo Biden's peace talks with Arab leaders who bought it hook line and sinker, then were too proud to walk back. I don't see what the good way out of this is.