Ask the experts

[Andeh]

Quick look at 5010 MX geo shows it’s not too much different than the Patrol MX, just a slightly shorter wheelbase and therefore front center, so maybe the 436 CS might feel slightly more balanced on the 5010 than Patrol? Wonder if it’s worth a demo or if I’m just unlikely to be satisfied based on my Patrol results.

Again I feel like if I lived in Bend and did a lot of loose sandy riding, the Patrol MX (and probably 5010) would be so surfy and rad, but here on the clay rich wet side of the Cascades, where rear wheel slides don’t catch and fall in line quite as quickly or easily, such a loosey goosey rear starts to feel more taxing than fun. My 29 hardtail is still my primary winter bike but we get a decent amount of rain in May, June and September October before it’s full on winter bike conditions.

Yup. If I could get a 3rd bike (shorter travel for more flowy, playful stuff), 5010 is at the top of my list for that reason. Around here, for 90% of the year, it's dust over hardpacked clay, so like you said, drifts feel sketchy AF.

[Kootenai]

Hey Collective,
I have both a RS Pike and RS Lyric. Aside from changing the oil and seals myself, they have never been professionally worked on. I was thinking about sending them back to the factory for the full refresh this winter. The Pike is a 2015? RCT3 160mm; the Lyric is a 2019 RCT3 160mm with a charger 2 damper. Question: Aside from the basic service from RS, Is there anything cool I can do to either one of these to make them more "2023-24" compatible? Within reason for budget, what would you recommend to make these sexy; and what vendor/service?

[meepmoop24]

Hey Collective,
I have both a RS Pike and RS Lyric. Aside from changing the oil and seals myself, they have never been professionally worked on. I was thinking about sending them back to the factory for the full refresh this winter. The Pike is a 2015? RCT3 160mm; the Lyric is a 2019 RCT3 160mm with a charger 2 damper. Question: Aside from the basic service from RS, Is there anything cool I can do to either one of these to make them more "2023-24" compatible? Within reason for budget, what would you recommend to make these sexy; and what vendor/service?

Upgrading to the C1 air spring was a cheap and noticeable upgrade on my 2018 Pike RCT3.

If you are getting the damper serviced it might be worth looking at a custom tune as well. I had the compression lightened on mine and just was also a good improvement.

[meepmoop24]

Hey Collective,
I have both a RS Pike and RS Lyric. Aside from changing the oil and seals myself, they have never been professionally worked on. I was thinking about sending them back to the factory for the full refresh this winter. The Pike is a 2015? RCT3 160mm; the Lyric is a 2019 RCT3 160mm with a charger 2 damper. Question: Aside from the basic service from RS, Is there anything cool I can do to either one of these to make them more "2023-24" compatible? Within reason for budget, what would you recommend to make these sexy; and what vendor/service?

Upgrading to the C1 air spring was a cheap and noticeable upgrade on my 2018 Pike RCT3.

If you are getting the damper serviced it might be worth looking at a custom tune as well. I had the compression lightened on mine and just was also a good improvement.

[chicken feathers]

Question about tokens. Do bike companies tune the number of tokens for a bike model? Wife has a new from the shop 23 Trek Fuel EX w/ a 150mm Fox Rhythm 36. I pulled it apart and was surprised to find 5 tokens in there. The 2023 Fox owners manual lists that it comes with 3 installed from the factory.

Was planning to experiment with the suspension anyways, but was also wondering if Trek knows something I don't, or if someone built the fork on a Friday afternoon.

[skinipenem]

Question about tokens. Do bike companies tune the number of tokens for a bike model? Wife has a new from the shop 23 Trek Fuel EX w/ a 150mm Fox Rhythm 36. I pulled it apart and was surprised to find 5 tokens in there. The 2023 Fox owners manual lists that it comes with 3 installed from the factory.

Was planning to experiment with the suspension anyways, but was also wondering if Trek knows something I don't, or if someone built the fork on a Friday afternoon.

Last new bike I purchased had a significantly mismatched number of tokens from fork to shock. Fwiw

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[toast2266]

Question about tokens. Do bike companies tune the number of tokens for a bike model? Wife has a new from the shop 23 Trek Fuel EX w/ a 150mm Fox Rhythm 36. I pulled it apart and was surprised to find 5 tokens in there. The 2023 Fox owners manual lists that it comes with 3 installed from the factory.

Was planning to experiment with the suspension anyways, but was also wondering if Trek knows something I don't, or if someone built the fork on a Friday afternoon.

I think that bike shop just called your wife fat.

[skinipenem]

Awesome, thanks! I like the idea of a lighter play oriented bike that’s fun to whip around on small airs, climbs like a goat, can handle all day adventure ride duty or local smaller flow systems, but maybe gives up some hyper damp absolute line tracking rowdiness to do that. Honestly it’s pretty much how my Gen 1 Bronson CC is set up, but this would be a more refined, modernized, and more capable version I expect.

I am mullet curious and would be able to mount up my 29” fork and wheel for a test … I bet a 140mm 29er would feel great. That said my one and only mullet test ride on a new Patrol MX showed as many downsides as benefits: the loose rear wheel would be fun on dry drifty trails but the poor traction was really terrible to have on wet slippery trails, I had to invert braking technique by doing heavy speed reduction with the front and only fine speed control on the rear due to the traction imbalance (where I’m used to the opposite), and when climbing switchbacks the bike wanted to wheelie and it required a lot more focus and technique to bring around on those or other uphill obstacles. I’m sure much of this was accentuated by specific geo and leverage of the Patrol, but I also bet some of this would still be noticeable on a Shadowcat mullet?

I'm a little confused as to the chainstay discussion and creae wheel traction.

I agree shorter chainstays make technical climbs more challenging secondary to the wheelie factor.

However, in my experience and I could be wrong, shortening chainstays moves the riders center of mass rearward thus REQUIRING more active, read body position, weighting of the FRONT wheel when cornering. In other words, shorter chainstays equals more rear wheel traction. This is in line with the wheelie climbing issue.

I have a very long torso and shorter chainstays help me feel less in front of the front tire. I also prefer to aggressively weight the front wheel by shifting hips forward in turns. For what it is worth, I like to two wheel drift; "that's where the fun is."

As for braking, I certainly put more power down on the front brake. The rear can't take as much behind power before losing traction. Physics problem. I rarely use the test brake to coax a drift and instead use my hips/r bike lean angle/ bar counterpressure; this is probably more of a difference in style thing, though, and not necessarily better or worse.

Best way to test the chainstay length thing is ride a bike with adjustable chainstays and experiment.


I could be wrong and / or My explanation might be completely NOT understandable.

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[chicken feathers]

I think that bike shop just called your wife fat.

I know! She’s not. But if she asks whats up I’ll tell her they just figured she shreds 😬. I kinda doubt the shop opened the fork up…

Last new bike I purchased had a significantly mismatched number of tokens from fork to shock. Fwiw

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Copy. I better look at the shock next too then.

Thanks fellas.

[Andeh]

I'm a little confused as to the chainstay discussion and creae wheel traction.

I agree shorter chainstays make technical climbs more challenging secondary to the wheelie factor.

However, in my experience and I could be wrong, shortening chainstays moves the riders center of mass rearward thus REQUIRING more active, read body position, weighting of the FRONT wheel when cornering. In other words, shorter chainstays equals more rear wheel traction. This is in line with the wheelie climbing issue.

I have a very long torso and shorter chainstays help me feel less in front of the front tire. I also prefer to aggressively weight the front wheel by shifting hips forward in turns. For what it is worth, I like to two wheel drift; "that's where the fun is."

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Toast can explain it better, but I think it boils down to different wheel sizes = different axle heights, which want to carve different radii when leaned over. If you lean over matched wheels, they'll want to carve the same radius assuming your weight is between them. If you have mismatched wheel sizes, the smaller one will want to cut a shorter radius. If you lengthen the CS for MX configuration, that rear axle will initiate the curve further back, offsetting the difference in natural radius.

Alternately, you can ride a MX with weight biased more forward like you do, but it's less intuitive and less stable than just hanging out in the middle. Santa Cruz actually talks about in the setup tips for the Bronson MX (which has a pretty short CS). Your forward weight bias is also what helps you initiate the rear drift easily. It's cool that you ride somewhere where 2 wheel drifts are predictable, but for dust over hard clay, once it gets to that point for me, it means I'm about to hit ground as hard as concrete. Traction is either there or it's not. Whenever I go somewhere sandy, it always takes me a bit to realize that drift is ok/fun.

[sfotex]

Anyone here know anything about the Norco move to the US? My dealer is trying to get some small parts from them (Cable port covers) for me and
it's been silence for a few weeks...

[skinipenem]

Toast can explain it better, but I think it boils down to different wheel sizes = different axle heights, which want to carve different radii when leaned over. If you lean over matched wheels, they'll want to carve the same radius assuming your weight is between them. If you have mismatched wheel sizes, the smaller one will want to cut a shorter radius. If you lengthen the CS for MX configuration, that rear axle will initiate the curve further back, offsetting the difference in natural radius.

Alternately, you can ride a MX with weight biased more forward like you do, but it's less intuitive and less stable than just hanging out in the middle. Santa Cruz actually talks about in the setup tips for the Bronson MX (which has a pretty short CS). Your forward weight bias is also what helps you initiate the rear drift easily. It's cool that you ride somewhere where 2 wheel drifts are predictable, but for dust over hard clay, once it gets to that point for me, it means I'm about to hit ground as hard as concrete. Traction is either there or it's not. Whenever I go somewhere sandy, it always takes me a bit to realize that drift is ok/fun.

I agree. Two wheel drifting on concrete is anxiety provoking. [emoji51]
I agree with most, of not all, of your analysis but I'll add the following. For me, a longer front center and shorter chainstays works with the realization that one has to aggressively pressure the front tire in turns to create traction. Drifts bring a byproduct of overcoming available traction.

Riding bikes is fun! I'm not yet ready to end the season and go to ice skate on inclined slopes here in the land of crap snow



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[SchralphMacchio]

Interesting to hear multiple of you guys power speed braking from the front.

My fork is relatively old, it has the Charger 1 RCT3 damper that has separate LSC control that I can use to manage fork dive, but when fork dive and out of saddle climbing bob are well controlled by the LSC damper on my fork there is also too much loss of sensitivity for how I like to ride trails, so I back the LSC down to optimize more for riding than braking.

Separately from this, it was actually a group lesson coach at Whistler Bike Park who told me to scrub speed during high traction straight line braking from the rear so that the fork would not dive and head angle would not steepen when diving into the corner or coming up to some tech. He’s also the guy who got me into counter steering before a corner (e.g., turn bars left going into a right hander) so that the wheel flop would allow the bike to drop and lean very quickly and get the tire’s corner knobs engaged right at corner entry.

So yeah, I do major speed reduction from the rear and fine speed control from the front.

The Patrol MX I demoed last month had a Fox 38, and it did not dive when high speed braking off the front. I couldn’t brake off the rear because traction sucked, so I was blown away that I could speed brake off the front and stay balanced. That’s why I flip flopped and used the rear for fine speed control. Worked pretty well other than the fact that Schwalbe Big Betty is an absolute terrible tire for wet semi-firm clay-rich loam that is shaped and packed … too much of a speed check and the tire is sideways and gone.

On that note, also look at the tread pattern of a DHF vs a Dissector or DHR2 … the center blocks of the DHF are narrow, it’s not designed for big braking, it’s designed for high running speed and lateral traction with the big center sipes. Look at the trailing edge of the Dissector trident and DHR2 paddles, they are set up for big time braking.

[Andeh]

Yeah, more recent forks have gained a lot more midstroke support from the air spring, so it's a lot easier to set them up so they don't dive. The other advantage to doing a lot of speed control with front and fine tuning with rear is that the geometry isn't changing as much (since you're on the front more often), and you can optimize your fork setup accordingly. Also, steepens head angle a bit so that wheelbase shortens and they corner better.

I haven't run a DHF in years, so that may have contributed to my brake setup/use. Assegai and now Kryptotal drop anchor really well.

[bry]

I first learned about counter steering to attack the inside line from my driver's ed teacher when I was 16.

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[jdadour]

I first learned about counter steering to attack the inside line from my driver's ed teacher when I was 16.

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Your driver's ed teacher is a fucking legend.

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[Dantheman]

Counter steering explained

https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac?si=IoMTnTf3x3XHNK6S

[Dee Hubbs]

Re: counter steering.
I rode a motorcycles for the majority of my mid/late 20's to late 30's. I actually rode professionally as a motorcycle tour guide for many of those years, and would easily ride over 50,000 kms in a summer, mostly in the mountains of British Columbia.
In my time away from work, on my personal sport bike, we could burn the tread and melt rubber all the way to edge of our high performance sport tires, drag knees and grind pegs past their wear points. We were a moto-menace on the mountain passes north of Whistler.
Obviously counter steering was an essential skill, not only to initiate the turn, but to still be pushing the bars in a counter steer motion deep into the turn.
It was a skill that was developed by feel, and developed naturally. In my early motorcycle years, if someone tried to explain counter steer to me, I don't think I would have understood what they were explaining, let alone try to execute the skill being described.
The first time I really had a deep dive/brain thought on the true physics/science behind counter steering was the first time I rode a motorcycle with cruise control. It was a brand new 2008 BMW R 1200RT we had just purchased for our fleet.
On the bikes maiden voyage on a fairly straight stretch, at 120kmh, I set the cruise control for the first time and took both hands off the bar. I had had obviously taken my hands off the bars on many bikes in many times before, but his was the first time that the bike continued to drive forward without my hand on the throttle. It was a new sensation. I could slightly correct my line with without my hands simply with body english, shifting my weight a bit, or hanging my knee out slightly.
It only was when I put just my left hand on the bar, that my brain had a crazy moment that couldn't compute the function that needed to happen. I had ridden for years and probably thousands of kilometers with one hand on the bike, with just my right had on the throttle, and my brain intuitively knew how to push and pull the bar with one hand, my right hand only. When I had only my left hand on the bar for the first time, my body/brain had never correlated those thoughts. The push to turn right and and pull to turn left of my single handed (right hand only) riding did not directly translate/compute to my newly experienced left hand only riding. It wasn't instantly intuitive that I need to do the opposite. It took a moment for my brain/body to learn/feel this new neuropath that was needed to steer the bike.
When you spend hours on a motorcycle you spend a lot of hours "inside your own head". I spent the rest of this ride in a really deep dive into the physics of the "counter steering" in a way that I had never explored. For the rest of the ride I was making subtle counter steer movements on the bars, and went over different ways to explain the sensations and physics to new riders. I even later researched articles about MotoGP riders who described their techniques of only steering with their left hands so that they could just use their right hands for sensitive throttle control only.
This aha moment I had with only my left hand on the bar changed my technique and skill level of riding. I was more aware and more conscious of the counter steering movements I was making. I was able to hold/push my motorcycle deeper into turns, have more confidence at full lean angles.
I know it's a long winded explanation, but I've never really explained that realization I had to anyone, it was always a "in my own head" story while riding my motorcycle.

As a mountain bike coach now, I teach the importance of counter steering with the younger kids I coach. I try to keep most of the physics and science out of it and simply let them feel the technique though drills set up to acquire the feeling. Very much like the above video, but with out the crazy lock out, I have them ride in a straight line and on command have them push on their right handle bar so they can feel the way the bike moves. I love how the young minds can accept the actual physics of the movement without too much theoretical questioning. It's a skill they can acquire very early in their mountain bike years, that will help them perform for many years after that.

[zion zig zag]

Does anyone have any spare volume spacers for a 2022+ Fox Float X laying around? I’m looking for a .2 and .4 to try out and don’t really want to buy the whole package of them for $20. Gracias.


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[J. Barron DeJong]

The way I think of countersteering, from a vehicle dynamics point of view, is that to turn a bike or a motorcycle you need to get the center of gravity of the bike & rider to the inside of the tires contact patches - i.e. lean into the corner - to balance centripetal forces.

Countersteering very quickly moves the tire contact patches OUT of the corner, so it quickly gets your center of gravity far into the corner relative to those contact patches - allowing a fast transition to high centripetal cornering forces.

[BigHerm]

When y'all are talking about countersteering on a bicycle, are you talking about a "pre-turn" like in the Veritasium video or actually "turning the bars" right while in a left like dirt oval motorcycle racing?

I recently started applying "pre-turns" to my cornering and have had good results. More than just outside-in line choice, inside-outside-inside.

[volklpowdermaniac]

Gonna move up travel from my epic evo , and as such wondering what the frame is worth: 21 Sworks epic evo medium ( sweet metallic forest green with bronze speckled s works logo) will include a headset but likely not much more.
One scruff from falling against a tree, carbon wasn’t damaged, paint was replaced with factory matched paint and clear coat. Otherwise covered in frame tape and ready to rock. It’s light, like really light.

Approximate value given terrible timing of market gluttony and off season?

Thx

[jono]

When y'all are talking about countersteering on a bicycle, are you talking about a "pre-turn" like in the Veritasium video or actually "turning the bars" right while in a left like dirt oval motorcycle racing?

I recently started applying "pre-turns" to my cornering and have had good results. More than just outside-in line choice, inside-outside-inside.

Pre-turn. Timed properly, it also helps eliminate the DHF Drift.

[SchralphMacchio]

As Jono said I just was talking about corner initiation, and especially for high wall corners it’s fun for multiple reasons …

Let’s say we are bombing in a straight line heading toward a high berm right hander, let’s say going down the middle of the line and totally upright with no pre-lean, what I learned to do is flick an exaggerated hard left steer, the bike quickly starts to fall over to the right while the front wheel starts to climb the berm to the outside line, straighten the right arm pushing down hard and the bike drops over even faster and the corner knobs of the tires start to bite, aim the hips to corner exit while throwing the bars straight (not really much to the right), pump the hands and feet, and now you’re blasting through the high line with the bike pushing off the berm, going right, without having really steered the bike to the right (okay maybe just a tiny bit to get the best line to the exit).

But I digress. No one is yet giving me shit for asserting that Maxxis’s heavily optimized front tire pattern isn’t set up for hard braking while their heavily optimized rear tire pattern is set up for hard braking ….

[dcpnz]

Gonna move up travel from my epic evo……..

N+1 sir

If you can swing it financially and space wise you really ought to keep the epic evo and grab one of smokans lightly used stumpy/ stumpy evos.