The 300g Touring Binding Thread

[riff]

I'm looking to go brakeless with my Salomon MTNs, does anyone know if I can use the ATK freeride spacer as a stomp pad? I'm looking at the universal freeride spacer on BDs website, does it just get attached directly to the ski in front of the heel rails?

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I have this setup on mine, and yes.


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[rigbone]

I have this setup on mine, and yes.


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Can I reuse the original screws or do I need to get smaller ones?

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[auvgeek]

The Trab Vario2 ski incredibly well. Even on terrible early-season refrozen slush, they are nearly indistinguishable from Vipecs. Good retention even with an offset mount that I have yet to fix. Remind me why is everyone fucking around with different heels on this winner?

Good fucking question. Seems like people want more riser options and adjustable release, but they would be better off just using the trab heels.

So I'm the only one in this thread who's actually done/doing this, as far as I know. There are a few reasons:
1. the freeride spacer! sure, I could mess around with the old ATK "universal" freeride spacer on the Vario.2, like the one guy who left the detailed review of the Vario.2 on skimo.co did but ... why?
2. not having to rotate to switch between medium and high riser heights
3. adjustable lateral/vertical release
4. higher available release values

The flippable risers are big deal to me personally because I have limited ankle ROM and a knee injury (posterior joint capsule, from hyperextending it at the top of a heavy back squat). It's mostly healed now, but it's sensitive to riser height over the course of multiple long touring days. I also run my RV higher than the "9-11" max on the Vario.2.

YMMV of course, and what matters to me might not matter to you. I can make the argument in favor of the Vario.2 heel for sure. Especially for softer skis where the gapless makes more of a difference as the ski flexes. I can also make the argument in favor of the Speed Superlight 2.0 heel, if you wanna go even lighter. Different strokes. I'll reiterate that I would buy a "Vario.3" in a heartbeat if it came with flippable risers, and a freeride spacer. Or if ATK went gapless with more lateral elasticity.

Anyway, I've skied these quite a lot now with the toes unlocked, including skiing pretty fast and hitting some sizeable airs. Nothing huge, but maybe 25-30 feet at speed (aka "Colorado 40 footer"). Some overhead Monashee blower, some Colorado windboard/breakable crust nonsense, and most everything in between (suncrust, mank, boot-deep pow, heavy pow, etc).

After I started clearing my boot heel tech fittings from snow (thanks for the tip, norseman), I've had zero additional pre-releases with the toes unlocked. I have had one release when I hit a rock hard. The ski fully released from heel and toe. I sprained my ankle (jammed, not twisted) and coreshot my new skis, but I'm not sure a different binding would/could have behaved better. I had one other fall when I went over the bars on landing maybe a 15 foot air, but skis stayed on and I skied away after a lil somersault.

I'm sure the Vipec/Tecton has better release characteristics, but these are half the weight and ski very well. The freeride spacer gives me some confidence I won't blow up the pins on landing. Also, it *seems* that the freeride space provides slightly better vertical power transfer when using your tails as landing gear or trying to get tips up quickly to get over a sightly-buried log. Of course, your heel isn't locked down the same as with a Tecton or Kingpin, but these quick motions I'm discussing are just downward pressure on the heel in powder.

Anyway, I like these enough that I'm seriously debating Tectons vs these for a wider pow touring setup. I definitely the appeal of the Tecton, especially for throwing spins/flips, but I can't help but wonder if the additional 300g wouldn't be better felt in the ski vs the binding.

[Lord Thomas]

I'll reiterate that I would buy a "Vario.3" in a heartbeat if it came with flippable risers, and a freeride spacer. Or if ATK went gapless with more lateral elasticity.

I am totally onboard with this notion.

[thecazdog]

So I'm the only one in this thread who's actually done/doing this, as far as I know.

Nah dude, I'm rolling with the Traider too!

Just the other day I skied for the first time on a Vario 2. I threw my ATK heels in the pack too to do a comparison (inserts of course).

I did two runs before ditching the Varios. No dramas with function or elasticity...it was more about the point of contact with the boot. What I mean is that when I ski my ATK heel, when I push down through my boot the Freeride spacer is where the power is being transferred. With the Vario, it was much higher (as in the back of the heel where the insert is). Basically, I felt like I was skiing in high heels (pretty similar to the ramp angle I experienced with the Xenic).

It may not ski quite as great as a Tecton, but at less than half the weight, the Traider is maybe the best lightweight combo that I've skied on (and that's on skis like Commander Tour and the proper Corvus).

[CaliBrit]

Nah dude, I'm rolling with the Traider too!

Just the other day I skied for the first time on a Vario 2. I threw my ATK heels in the pack too to do a comparison (inserts of course).

I did two runs before ditching the Varios. No dramas with function or elasticity...it was more about the point of contact with the boot. What I mean is that when I ski my ATK heel, when I push down through my boot the Freeride spacer is where the power is being transferred. With the Vario, it was much higher (as in the back of the heel where the insert is). Basically, I felt like I was skiing in high heels (pretty similar to the ramp angle I experienced with the Xenic).

It may not ski quite as great as a Tecton, but at less than half the weight, the Traider is maybe the best lightweight combo that I've skied on (and that's on skis like Commander Tour and the proper Corvus).

This is probably buried earlier but what is the point in running the Trab toe? Why not just run the full ATK binder?

Does the trab toe have some (meaningful) elasticity?

[JackSkier]

It's a shame Dynafit doesn't offer the Rotation toe with a lighter elastic travel heel piece. The Rotation has by far the most consistent release among all tech bindings (read the SkiAlper survey from a few years ago) and skis great.


I was running the Rotation toe with Marker Alpinist heels for a while before I lost one of the skis to the North face of the Aiguille du Midi. Was a sweet setup. Zero ramp angle too. Just too expensive to replace, sadly.

[rod9301]

Maybe the rotation has consistent release.
In France, a lot of shops refuse to sell it, because of many prereleases.

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[Benneke10]

Thanks auvgeek for the detailed review!

[Benneke10]

I did two runs before ditching the Varios. No dramas with function or elasticity...it was more about the point of contact with the boot. What I mean is that when I ski my ATK heel, when I push down through my boot the Freeride spacer is where the power is being transferred. With the Vario, it was much higher (as in the back of the heel where the insert is). Basically, I felt like I was skiing in high heels (pretty similar to the ramp angle I experienced with the Xenic).

I don't understand why you feel a difference in ramp angle when the heel pin heights are 43mm and 44mm respectively. https://skimo.co/pin-heights

[JackSkier]

Maybe the rotation has consistent release.
In France, a lot of shops refuse to sell it, because of many prereleases.

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They should reconsider if that's actually the case. Look at what Nikolai Schirmer gets up to with unlocked Rotation toes. I've run the rotating toe for over 4 years and have never prereleased. The rotating toe reduces the chances of prerelease significantly. I do lock them out when above exposure but that's standard practice with all tech bindings.

[kamtron]

Rotation bindings ski great and tour fine. They are just heavy. I had a friend whose heel elastic travel got stuck, so they probably also benefit from occasionally removing the heel piece and greasing the spring.

[thecazdog]

I don't understand why you feel a difference in ramp angle when the heel pin heights are 43mm and 44mm respectively. https://skimo.co/pin-heights

I hear you and thought I'd be happy on the Vario 2 as well (ramp angle is similar to other bindings I like). But like I said, the point at which forces are transferred is very different between the Vario and the ATK - with a free ride spacer the pins can be taking much less of the load on the ATK.

And yes, the Trab Gara Titan/Vario toe does have more elasticity in a super lightweight package...looks like some of the latest ATK stuff will have adjustable elasticity at the toe, but before that I had been rattled out of ATK toe pieces on very firm and icy snow.

[Pins and Skins]

I just hacked together a Trab toe and a Yak heel. I call it the Trak.

Ramp angle is a tad high, but I'm ok with that compromise. To be field tested in a few weeks...

[cydwhit]

I'm pretty interested in the Titan 2, is there any chance someone who has a pair could measure the delta between the top of the highest riser and the center of the heel pins? Trying to figure out how high that riser actually is. Thanks!

[Skeeze]

Hey Cy, can’t verify this myself, but Skimo has a good page with riser heights and deltas from the center of the toe pins here https://skimo.co/binding-riser-heights


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[cydwhit]

Hey Cy, can’t verify this myself, but Skimo has a good page with riser heights and deltas from the center of the toe pins here https://skimo.co/binding-riser-heights


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I'm an idiot, I knew this page existed, bust just couldn't find it. Thanks!

[Lindahl]

They should reconsider if that's actually the case. Look at what Nikolai Schirmer gets up to with unlocked Rotation toes. I've run the rotating toe for over 4 years and have never prereleased. The rotating toe reduces the chances of prerelease significantly. I do lock them out when above exposure but that's standard practice with all tech bindings.

It doesn't in my experience, lateral hits near the toepiece, which happens when skiing hard angulations in firm rough snow, still cause prerelease. Nikolai skis powder mostly. You aren't going to see prereleases in the conditions he's skiing (and where he's going mostly straight).

The rotation really only helps for consistent release when the lateral release forces happen further back in the ski towards/past the heel.

[Cocximus]

I saw this in la sportiva sytron specs.

S4 toe inserts help guide the boot into a tech toe, but also allow hands free step-in capabilities with the Ski Trab Gara bindings.

That would make the trab toe the ultimate light binding. There's not much info on those inserts, and it looks like the new boots don't have them.

[timmaio]

I just rediscovered the Kreuzspitze GT and EL bindings, particularly the clever way the heel adjusts vertical release. I was fawning over the Dynafit Mezzalama heel only to discover it has been done that way for quite some time.

I like brakes for my transitions on harder snow and the tops of lines, I think my present ideal setup might be:
Trab toes, GT 2.0 heels, Plum adjustment plates with the optional brake hole in the front(not presently made) and Plum brakes for Oazo bindings.

[Benneke10]

That would make the trab toe the ultimate light binding. There's not much info on those inserts, and it looks like the new boots don't have them.

The Skorpius also has these inserts. You need a very flat surface to step in without pressing the lever, and I pretty much always use the lever. They do probably make the bindings easier to step into overall. Skorpius and Trab are a great combo but you can't just get into the bindings hands free in most situations.

[Cocximus]

Too bad most of my lines are 50°+.

If anyone wants to do QC beware the toe screws head is smaller than dynafits. They measure 7.8mm vs dynafit 8.3. I hope the head angle is the same or some other fuckery.

[cydwhit]

Thanks to this thread I finally figured out (I think, for now) my ultimate do-it-all binding combo: Trab toe, ATK Haute route heel, homemade freeride spacer. Skied it Saturday on the big skis in a variety of snow conditions and was really impressed. Two spacer heights, elastic travel in the heel, Trab toes feel so good, and all sub 180g. I am not a precise or smooth skier at all, and I hit a reasonably big air, into a pretty crappy landing, late in the day when my legs were fried, and came away so impressed at how the bindings felt.

So basically... If anybody wants to buy a pair of Trab Titan Vario 2 heels with one day on them, let me know! They're sick, but I don't need them haha.

[auvgeek]

^^ Awesome. I love what we're seeing for sub 200g options.

I would personally choose the Superlight 2.0 heel over the Haute Route heel because it has noticeably better "return to center" force. My wife skis the Haute Route heel, and it's definitely nice too -- the independent release and easy step-in are definitely appealing over the SSL 2.0 heel.

I'm glad we have another trab toe convert. Do you have a link to that homemade freeride spacer? I could see adding it to my skis that already have the Trab Toe + SSL 2.0 heel.

[cydwhit]

^^ Awesome. I love what we're seeing for sub 200g options.

I would personally choose the Superlight 2.0 heel over the Haute Route heel because it has noticeably better "return to center" force. My wife skis the Haute Route heel, and it's definitely nice too -- the independent release and easy step-in are definitely appealing over the SSL 2.0 heel.

I'm glad we have another trab toe convert. Do you have a link to that homemade freeride spacer? I could see adding it to my skis that already have the Trab Toe + SSL 2.0 heel.

Honestly, only reason I didn't go Suuperlight 2.0 heel is because I forgot Dynafit made bindings haha. Been so ATK centered for the last few years. Maybe I'll go with those for the other skis if I can sell my Trab heels. (Buy them somebody! They're sick, only reason I don't want them is because I've got messed up ankles that require a super flat ramp!)

The spacer is just a piece of polyethylene cutting board, cut to be about 10cm by 1.5 cm, just tall enough that I can slip a sheet of paper between it and the boot. IDK about safety, but for power transmission, it's awesome.