The 300g Touring Binding Thread

[Tjaardbreeuwer]

Thanks to this thread I finally figured out (I think, for now) my ultimate do-it-all binding combo: Trab toe, ATK Haute route heel, homemade freeride spacer. Two riser (?) heights, elastic travel in the heel, Trab toes feel so good, and all sub 180g.

Can you clarify whatyou mean with ‘elastic travel in the heel’ ? Length compensation is what I think of when I hear the word ‘travel’, but the Haute Route doesn’t have that does it?

Or do you mean the spring loaded return for rotation and upward release?

Skimo lists 209 grams for the Haute Route (I was in too much of a hurry to weigh mine when I got them), so the Trab toes are over 30 grams lighter (even more more to account for your spacer weight)?
Thats crazy, as the Haute Route toe is not very porky itself.

[cydwhit]

Can you clarify whatyou mean with ‘elastic travel in the heel’ ? Length compensation is what I think of when I hear the word ‘travel’, but the Haute Route doesn’t have that does it?

Or do you mean the spring loaded return for rotation and upward release?



Skimo lists 209 grams for the Haute Route (I was in too much of a hurry to weigh mine when I got them), so the Trab toes are over 30 grams lighter (even more more to account for your spacer weight)?
Thats crazy, as the Haute Route toe is not very porky itself.

Sorry, too many terms and too fast typing. Meant to say, even thought hey don't have the elastic travel, but do have independently adjustable upward and lateral release. My bad. Too many bindings and terms floating around in my head right now.

I'm running the Haute Route without the heel track (30ish g) and then the toes weigh in at 72g on my scale, opposed to the 90g a Trofeo (same as Haute Route?) toe weighs. Spacer and screw is 7g.

[auvgeek]

If a company could nail these two heels, I think they would be perfect for 99% of people's needs (pair with Trab toe):

Heel 1:
(hybrid of Superlight 1.0 and superlight 2.0):
- direct mount to ski (with optional bsl adjustment plate)
- independently adjustable lateral and vertical release (to RV 12).
- 2 flippable risers: first one covers heel pins + a higher one that flips again (similar to the Freeraider)
- rotate 90 deg for flat riser
- strong "return to center" force with high lateral elasticity
- small thin freeride spacer similar to Cy's (no moving parts)
- weight around 100g

Heel 2:
(hybrid of FR14 and Trab Vario.2)
- gapless with "elastic travel" (with bsl adjustment obviously)
- independently adjustable lateral and vertical release to 14
- strong "return to center" force with ultra high lateral elasticity
- freeride spacer that moves like ATK FR
- flippable magnetic risers like ATK FR
- weight around 200g

I guess while I'm wishing, might as well ask for a Trab toe with a slightly wider mount pattern to use with heel 2. But not a big deal; Trab toe skis fine as is.

[mr_pretzel]

It doesn't in my experience, lateral hits near the toepiece, which happens when skiing hard angulations in firm rough snow, still cause prerelease. Nikolai skis powder mostly. You aren't going to see prereleases in the conditions he's skiing (and where he's going mostly straight).

The rotation really only helps for consistent release when the lateral release forces happen further back in the ski towards/past the heel.

Lindhal, I’ve always respect the information you’ve shared on this topic. Are you still skiing the vipec?

[cydwhit]

If a company could nail these two heels, I think they would be perfect for 99% of people's needs (pair with Trab toe):

Heel 1:
(hybrid of Superlight 1.0 and superlight 2.0):
- direct mount to ski (with optional bsl adjustment plate)
- independently adjustable lateral and vertical release (to RV 12).
- 2 flippable risers: first one covers heel pins + a higher one that flips again (similar to the Freeraider)
- rotate 90 deg for flat riser
- strong "return to center" force with high lateral elasticity
- small thin freeride spacer similar to Cy's (no moving parts)
- weight around 100g

Heel 2:
(hybrid of FR14 and Trab Vario.2)
- gapless with "elastic travel" (with bsl adjustment obviously)
- independently adjustable lateral and vertical release to 14
- strong "return to center" force with ultra high lateral elasticity
- freeride spacer that moves like ATK FR
- flippable magnetic risers like ATK FR
- weight around 200g

I guess while I'm wishing, might as well ask for a Trab toe with a slightly wider mount pattern to use with heel 2. But not a big deal; Trab toe skis fine as is.

And while we're wishing, make 'em both low enough to the ski that you can get a flatish delta without a stack of shims!

But yeah, totally agree, those are the two heels I most want to see in the world.

Here's my probably idiotic question for the brain trust:

Why isn't the Freeraider zero gap? It has the heel compensation spring, like any of the other gapless bindings. It has a reported 12mm of travel, the Vipec has 13, Trab Titan only has 8mm, what's stopping us from cranking the Freeraider heel forward so it's gapless? Maybe this is a stupid question, but if so I'd love to learn why.

[Benneke10]

Why isn't the Freeraider zero gap? It has the heel compensation spring, like any of the other gapless bindings. It has a reported 12mm of travel, the Vipec has 13, Trab Titan only has 8mm, what's stopping us from cranking the Freeraider heel forward so it's gapless? Maybe this is a stupid question, but if so I'd love to learn why.

ATK claims that the cam system has performance equivalent to gapless systems.. hard to say if that's true

[auvgeek]

And while we're wishing, make 'em both low enough to the ski that you can get a flatish delta without a stack of shims!

100% agree!! I'm sure you know this already, but ...

On the first one, it's pretty easy. 31 mm pin height gets you flat without shimming a standard tech toe.

On the second one, the limiting factor seems to be the heel adjustment adds height. For a while it seemed like companies were trying to put the adjustment (and brake) in the toe, but that sort of fell by the wayside. Not sure if there's a way to reduce the heel height with a worm screw adjustment or not. It seems all bindings with worm screw plates end up around 40-45 mm pin height. But yeah, woul love to see something closer to 35. I'm fine with a 5mm shim under the toes for flat, or 5mm delta for people who like some delta.

[Lindahl]

Lindhal, I’ve always respect the information you’ve shared on this topic. Are you still skiing the vipec?

Yeah, I do on my deep pow skis. I also have a pair of ATK SL World Cups for my superlight powder skis, ATK Trofeo 10s for my firm snow mountaineering skis and Shifts for my alpine resort/sidecountry skis - never had a prerelease issue that so many talk about so I must have a good pair?

[Dromond]

Sorry, too many terms and too fast typing. Meant to say, even thought hey don't have the elastic travel, but do have independently adjustable upward and lateral release. My bad. Too many bindings and terms floating around in my head right now.

I'm running the Haute Route without the heel track (30ish g) and then the toes weigh in at 72g on my scale, opposed to the 90g a Trofeo (same as Haute Route?) toe weighs. Spacer and screw is 7g.

Could you post a photo of your setup? Which Trab toe do you use and how high are the pins off of the ski? Do you have fully flat delta?

I run Dynafit Radical toes with a shim and Plum 165 heels to get super flat delta because I am also weird and need it to ski comfortably.

[cydwhit]

Could you post a photo of your setup? Which Trab toe do you use and how high are the pins off of the ski? Do you have fully flat delta?

I run Dynafit Radical toes with a shim and Plum 165 heels to get super flat delta because I am also weird and need it to ski comfortably.

Fat skis have Gara toes, Haute Route heels, no adjust plate. Toe: 31 mm, Heel: 31.5 mm, Delta: .5 mm
Narrower skis have Titan 2 Toes (same as Gara, but with Trab's 5.5mm shim) Haute Route heels, on the adjustment plate. Toe: 35.5 mm, Heel:36.5 mm, Delta: 1 mm

Basically flat.

[funkendrenchman]

This thread has some great info.

Just had to choose a binding for the Free 107. My choices came down to the ATK Crest, Plum Oazo 8, and Salomon MTN. I went the MTN because of the lifter configuration and slightly better power transfer (also have an option to add the Universal Freeride Spacer). I've seen lots of reviews mentioning floppy lifters. Hopefully they hold up for me.

[riff]

Regarding floppy lifters, it took me roughly 90-100 days of skiing to have them get floppy- now i just shove some chapstick or heavy grease in there and they are fine for a while. Excellent bindings!


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[DGamms]

I may have missed it, but anyone have experience or thoughts on the Moment Voyager XII? Damn expensive but it looks great…

[kid-kapow]

hm, interesting cyd and auv

I have yet to ski my new Vario 2s. I contemplated going with ATK heels, but the stock toe+heel combo measured in with the same delta as GripWalk Pivots - I can't remember if it was the same Castified Pivots (1mm lower toes) or the standard GripWalk Pivot toe. The ATK heel would alter this a fair bit - I can't remember the measurements / in what way.

And to be specific - the way that I measure it is to put tape on the boot from the lugs in the front to the back. I draw a line on the tap and measure from two spots from said line to the top sheet of the ski.

I have found the measurement to differ / yielding different deltas compared to some of the pin delta lists online. The most notable difference was when comparing Vipecs and Tectons with Lange XT3 130LVs. The heel on the Tecton is 3mm lower than the Vipec, yielding a difference in delta of 2.6degrees x3 - so pretty significant difference. It totally explained why I could not ski Tectons for the life of me last year, but along with Vipecs just fine. Vipecs have the same delta as Castified Pivots. I am about as flexible as a 2x4 so other people might have very different experiences from me.

I will have to do some tinkering though as I think the need to turn the heel to get to use the riders will be a pretty instant deal breaker for me.

I may have missed it, but anyone have experience or thoughts on the Moment Voyager XII? Damn expensive but it looks great…

there is a ton of feedback on that binding in the ATK thread. Same binding as the regular Raider/FR 12/14/16, just with 4mm less delta and freeride spacers included. Killer binding.

I hhave not skied it or the new Evos, but the latter impressed the shit out of me. So impressively engineered.

[Westcoaster]

hm, interesting cyd and auv

I have yet to ski my new Vario 2s. I contemplated going with ATK heels, but the stock toe+heel combo measured in with the same delta as GripWalk Pivots - I can't remember if it was the same Castified Pivots (1mm lower toes) or the standard GripWalk Pivot toe. The ATK heel would alter this a fair bit - I can't remember the measurements / in what way.

And to be specific - the way that I measure it is to put tape on the boot from the lugs in the front to the back. I draw a line on the tap and measure from two spots from said line to the top sheet of the ski.

I have found the measurement to differ / yielding different deltas compared to some of the pin delta lists online. The most notable difference was when comparing Vipecs and Tectons with Lange XT3 130LVs. The heel on the Tecton is 3mm lower than the Vipec, yielding a difference in delta of 2.6degrees x3 - so pretty significant difference. It totally explained why I could not ski Tectons for the life of me last year, but along with Vipecs just fine. Vipecs have the same delta as Castified Pivots. I am about as flexible as a 2x4 so other people might have very different experiences from me.

I will have to do some tinkering though as I think the need to turn the heel to get to use the riders will be a pretty instant deal breaker for me.




there is a ton of feedback on that binding in the ATK thread. Same binding as the regular Raider/FR 12/14/16, just with 4mm less delta and freeride spacers included. Killer binding.

I hhave not skied it or the new Evos, but the latter impressed the shit out of me. So impressively engineered.

did you fondle the new evos? The toe mechanism looks new, and one wonders if the variable release solves prerelease issues people have with different boot combos etc.

The sport is now big enough for someone to be throwing these bindings on a machine (or two) to generate some data on release repeatability and forces, or at least someone in the US.

[Cocximus]

So the vario 2 does not have brakes over 100mm. Clearly the italians have a small dick and no snow. At least it settles the brakes vs leashes dilemma.

[Bamski]

Wound up pulling the trigger on some Plum Pikas for around 650 CAD for my spring / big day ski. The construction and fit / finish of these bindings is impressive. I’d have loved another set of Voyagers, but at 1000+ CAD all in, it’s tough to justify for a ski I won’t be pushing as a DD.

I couldn’t decide between the Varios and Plums. Ultimately I deferred to my preference for release adjustability (u springs aren’t my favorite), all metal construction, and easy riser engagement. I’ve heard good things about both.

[Benneke10]

So the vario 2 does not have brakes over 100mm. Clearly the italians have a small dick and no snow. At least it settles the brakes vs leashes dilemma.

I'm not gonna stand for this Trab disrespect. For the record, Trab toes have the best leash attachment on the market.

[riff]

Wound up pulling the trigger on some Plum Pikas for around 650 CAD for my spring / big day ski. The construction and fit / finish of these bindings is impressive. I’d have loved another set of Voyagers, but at 1000+ CAD all in, it’s tough to justify for a ski I won’t be pushing as a DD.

I couldn’t decide between the Varios and Plums. Ultimately I deferred to my preference for release adjustability (u springs aren’t my favorite), all metal construction, and easy riser engagement. I’ve heard good things about both.

Give us some thoughts on the pikas over in the Plum thread- I’m a recent convert with Oazos and I’m stoked.


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[CaliBrit]

How do people feel on the release values for the vario2 heels. I saw that they trend toward the higher end? So 7-9 is closer to 9.

People’s thoughts on this?

Also does anyone have the template to mount these?

Which jig is relevant too? I’m tired of paper. Maybe I can borrow one from a shop.

[Benneke10]

The skimo co guys have release tested the Vario.2's and say they test closer to the higher end of the stated range. As for the mounting jig, the toes match up with the ATK race toes, and I believe the heel width is the same as the Raiders but length is slightly different so you can use an ATK jig with some creativity to mount them.

[CaliBrit]

The skimo co guys have release tested the Vario.2's and say they test closer to the higher end of the stated range. As for the mounting jig, the toes match up with the ATK race toes, and I believe the heel width is the same as the Raiders but length is slightly different so you can use an ATK jig with some creativity to mount them.

Good to know. I have an ATK jig so I’m 75% there!

[frorider]

Some of you may remember the heel riser mod I did to my Alpinists to get a few more mm of height in both positions. Well since the Alpinists continue to be IME the best all round binding in this weight category (other than the low riser height), I’m currently working with Collin (StrapOff mfger) on a CNC’d aftermarket riser for the Alpinist that really addresses this issue. Stay tuned.

[zlatham]

Great idea fro, i was just contemplating modifying mine for a bit more rise. Looking forward to your results!


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[fleaches]

Some of you may remember the heel riser mod I did to my Alpinists to get a few more mm of height in both positions. Well since the Alpinists continue to be IME the best all round binding in this weight category (other than the low riser height), I’m currently working with Collin (StrapOff mfger) on a CNC’d aftermarket riser for the Alpinist that really addresses this issue. Stay tuned.

Neat I'd be in. Just got a couple pairs of alpinists and like them so far.

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