Student Loan Forgiveness

[skaredshtles]

Everyone complaining about this program thinks they have a better idea (for this program or an alternative) but has anyone tried to act on it?

Or, can anyone (at least) cite to a program that was killed because of this student loan forgiveness program?

(Will check back in a few pages)


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Don't hold your breath...

[MultiVerse]

Everyone complaining about this program thinks they have a better idea (for this program or an alternative) but has anyone tried to act on it?

Or, can anyone (at least) cite to a program that was killed because of this student loan forgiveness program?

(Will check back in a few pages)

A better question is what are the actual policy goals of this program and does it achieve them?

[SumJongGuy]

Random question;

If you qualify for relief does the gubamint send you a check to pay down your loan or do they intervene and pay down the loan directly?

Reason I ask is a past history of watching so many folk use their student loans to buy a new bike or skis or whatever and let the balance ride.

Just yesterday evening I was looking at daughter's loan credit statement that has instructions to move the remaining balance to her (or any) bank account. Once it's there they can do whatever the hell they want with it. I asked wife if I was reading that right. I was lucky enough to not need any loans. She did hers ALL on her own with zero parental support.

She explained that once you get the loan approved at that point it's really just a loan with zero restrictions on what they can spend it on... That's predatory as fuck. Ya, it requires an 18 year old kid to make some poor decisions, but still pretty fucked up.. Oh, you're enrolling in college?? OK here's $10,000 you can use for that... or anything else under the sun, hookers and blow whatever....

I'd be down for showing some college transcripts to qualify for loan forgiveness knowing that... Even if they were piss poor grades, proof that they at least tried, more than one semester seems like a reasonable requirement for this benefit..

[m2711c]

I am specifically referencing individual income above and not household. If you want to talk about households, 250K household income does not need a handout anywhere. Frankly 125k household income doesn't either. I know this is TGR and most of you have zero idea about what life is life in the real world but 250k is still a lot of fucking money to all but the top 10% of households in this country.

Not one of you is presenting an argument about how people without college degrees subsidizing those with one is in any way fair. That isn't perception, that is the reality of this program and it is pissing off a lot of people. Only 43 million people have student loans and there are 160+ million people in the workforce any given month.

there is a large percentage of people who owe money on student loans for which they did not receive a degree. this country pushes every kid into higher education whether or not they are suited for it. you are obsessing on the far end of the spectrum.

[::: :::]

Just yesterday evening I was looking at daughter's loan credit statement that has instructions to move the remaining balance to her (or any) bank account. Once it's there they can do whatever the hell they want with it. I asked wife if I was reading that right.

i had a friend in grad school who day-traded his loans. Technically, he was supposed to be paying the uni prior to the semester, but they actually didn't ding you unless you didn't pay by the end of the semester. So, he would pay at the end of the semester. i think he only lost in the market on one semester
ballsy, but he made it work so good on him (& this was during the dotcom boom)

[J. Barron DeJong]

there is a large percentage of people who owe money on student loans for which they did not receive a degree. this country pushes every kid into higher education whether or not they are suited for it. you are obsessing on the far end of the spectrum.

~40% of people with student debt didn’t get a degree.

[jackstraw]

I'm not projecting shit. Pointing out some guy who works for a logging company in Maine paying off TGR dentists student loans clearly just strikes a chord here.

That is the reality of this thread. Of course you are all for it because it is you and your buddies getting the benefit. I also think you all know this is to blatant of a handout.

I'm not disagreeing that is what is happening, but it's just false. Just look at douchebag Cruz's comments about “slacker baristas getting off the bong". That's what these guys are hearing and thinking "yes!" Why am I paying for that! Typical republicans projecting bullshit. Same way we got trump

[Core Shot]

~40% of people with student debt didn’t get a degree.

Ouch. That’s a crazy stat.

Is that just trg ski bums?

[jackstraw]

Ouch. That’s a crazy stat.

Is that just trg ski bums?

No, just most of the wealthiest people on the planet.

[LongShortLong]

I guess we don’t know exactly how this will work, but generally the government will issue payment directly to the servicer/lender on behalf of the borrower. Since this is federally held debt the gubmint is likely just moving stuff around on their balance sheet.



There was a comment upthread about this working out to something like $1k/person, which seems crazy. But that’s now how taxes are paid. These people in rural Maine making $50K and lower aren’t paying for this. That narrative is absurd. If you make $50K and you have a family you aren’t paying much in taxes, and the bulk of this money is being paid for by the wealthy and the corporations. Ask them if they’d be OK with corporations and the wealthy paying for some debt forgiveness for the dwindling middle-class, instead, and I bet their tune changes.

Other recent gov't policies have cut taxes for the corporations and wealthy, so they won't be paying for this. This will be added to the national debt. Since we've chosen not to pay our debt, we'll all suffer due to the economic effects of that. IIRC in the recent Euro debt crisis, a country was in the basket case category when debt to GDP exceeded 1. The effects in those countries were high unemployment, business failures, hunger, and bailouts. I'm just a casual, but it seems we're either on borrowed time or in need of a strong argument why we are special and will remain so. This is not an argument against the student loan program, just an argument that excess spending will be paid somehow.

In any case, the earlier stated $321B program cost divided by 330M Americans works out to $1000 each.

[SumJongGuy]

It's debatable whether or not some college is better than none in the job market. Depends on the situation and what kind of grades the person was making before they had to drop out.

[Kevo]

Other recent gov't policies have cut taxes for the corporations and wealthy, so they won't be paying for this. This will be added to the national debt. Since we've chosen not to pay our debt, we'll all suffer due to the economic effects of that. IIRC in the recent Euro debt crisis, a country was in the basket case category when debt to GDP exceeded 1. The effects in those countries were high unemployment, business failures, hunger, and bailouts. I'm just a casual, but it seems we're either on borrowed time or in need of a strong argument why we are special and will remain so. This is not an argument against the student loan program, just an argument that excess spending will be paid somehow.

In any case, the earlier stated $321B program cost divided by 330M Americans works out to $1000 each.

That's actually not accurate.

"In 2020, out of 176.2 million individuals and married couples who could file a tax return, about 144.5 million of them actually filed a tax return. Of the 144.5 million, 75.1 million filers paid no taxes after deductions and credits. Another 32 million households did not file a tax return. In total, about 107 million Americans (or 60.6 percent of households) paid no federal income taxes."

It's actually $321 billion / 37.5 million tax paying individuals and households, so $8,560 per tax paying individual and household in the United States.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Other recent gov't policies have cut taxes for the corporations and wealthy, so they won't be paying for this. This will be added to the national debt. Since we've chosen not to pay our debt, we'll all suffer due to the economic effects of that. IIRC in the recent Euro debt crisis, a country was in the basket case category when debt to GDP exceeded 1. The effects in those countries were high unemployment, business failures, hunger, and bailouts. I'm just a casual, but it seems we're either on borrowed time or in need of a strong argument why we are special and will remain so. This is not an argument against the student loan program, just an argument that excess spending will be paid somehow.

In any case, the earlier stated $321B program cost divided by 330M Americans works out to $1000 each.

There was a famous Econ paper that came out after the Great Recession showing that debt/gdp of more than 1 is economically harmful. Less famously, that result was shown to have been the result of a simple error in the Excel spreadsheet they were using for their calculations.

There’s nothing special about debt/gdp being more than 1. Japan has issues with it’s economy, but their debt/gdp is currently 2.6. By all rights there economy should be a flaming pile of dog shit if there was something magical happening once debt/gdp exceeds 1.

Regarding the $1k number, as others have pointed out, that is the average, not what the typical workers share is going to be. Worker making $50k is probably going to on the hook for something closer to $50. Would the blue collar peeps in Maine be as up in arms about that number, or should they keep being fed the lie that they’re going to be $1k out of pocket?

[Toadman]

It's debatable whether or not some college is better than none in the job market. Depends on the situation and what kind of grades the person was making before they had to drop out.

I think that debate has been settled. People with college degrees do better than those that don't. Longer life expectancy. Better health. Better total income generation.

From a Georgetown University Study;

Median Income and Education

Here are the median lifetime earnings of full-time workers by level of education:

less than high school - $1.2 million
high school diploma - $1.6 million
some college, but no degree - $1.9 million, equal to about $47,500 annually
associate’s degree - $2 million, or about $50,000 per year
bachelor’s degree - $2.8 million, the equivalent of $70,000 annually
master’s degree - $3.2 million, or $80,000 annually
doctoral degree - $4 million, equal to $100,000 per year
professional degree - $4.7 million, or an average of $117,500 annually.

Then the health and life expectancy;

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/19/coll...ge-degree.html

[J. Barron DeJong]

I think that debate has been settled. People with college degrees do better than those that don't. Longer life expectancy. Better health. Better total income generation.

From a Georgetown University Study;

Median Income and Education

Here are the median lifetime earnings of full-time workers by level of education:

less than high school - $1.2 million
high school diploma - $1.6 million
some college, but no degree - $1.9 million, equal to about $47,500 annually
associate’s degree - $2 million, or about $50,000 per year
bachelor’s degree - $2.8 million, the equivalent of $70,000 annually
master’s degree - $3.2 million, or $80,000 annually
doctoral degree - $4 million, equal to $100,000 per year
professional degree - $4.7 million, or an average of $117,500 annually.

Then the health and life expectancy;

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/19/coll...ge-degree.html

I think what he getting at is that the ‘some college, but no degree’ category has higher earnings than H.S. only, but if you were to dig into that particular group what are you going to find regarding who’s doing better than the H.S. only group, and who isn’t?

[Danno]

That's actually not accurate.

"In 2020, out of 176.2 million individuals and married couples who could file a tax return, about 144.5 million of them actually filed a tax return. Of the 144.5 million, 75.1 million filers paid no taxes after deductions and credits. Another 32 million households did not file a tax return. In total, about 107 million Americans (or 60.6 percent of households) paid no federal income taxes."

It's actually $321 billion / 37.5 million tax paying individuals and households, so $8,560 per tax paying individual and household in the United States.

That's not accurate either. Because that's simply not how govt spending works, and that implies that those people will pay $8,560 (or $1000 per the previous post) more in taxes than they currently do, which is total and utter BS.

[alpinevibes]

I wonder what financial impact will be realized by anyone posting in this thread? My guess is close to zero.

[raises hand]. Wife should be getting $10,000. When she finished her grad program 10 years ago she had about $150,000, with some leftover from undergrad. It won't change our lives super dramatically, but it will be a huge help towards transitioning our monthly "extra" money from student loans to 529/SEP IRA/savings/etc.

I'm not projecting shit. Pointing out some guy who works for a logging company in Maine paying off TGR dentists student loans clearly just strikes a chord here.

That is the reality of this thread. Of course you are all for it because it is you and your buddies getting the benefit. I also think you all know this is to blatant of a handout.

This thread isn't about PPP, or farm subsidies, or any other abused program. That can be talked about elsewhere, regardless of PPP at least being an attempt to keep blue collar America employed and farm subsidies being an attempt to keep blue collar America's grocery bills in check. At least blue collar America can see that logic. Student loan forgiveness isn't getting buy in from the non-college crowd and that is going to be a problem politically.

Own your narrative, own the conjecture you're stirring the pot with. And own and the fact that you are knowingly lobbing grenades (projecting) and setting yourself up to be attacked in a discussion where the majority disagrees with you - essentially arguing in bad faith. PPP, farm subsides and any other host of support program are relevant here. Just like the student loan forgiveness plan, they all have some amount of political angle but are also all positioned to attempt to create some benefit and economic stimulus for a larger subset of our economy. The student loan forgiveness gets sticky when you try to analyze in a silo, disconnected from the fact that it's one of many programs/intentions/outcomes that the whichever party in power has managed to navigate through the political obstacle course that is modern America.

The high level positives of the plan are that it mostly helps lower-income Americans and people of color. It's easy to assume that the $125k/$250k cap means that the plan must just be giving a white guy a free handout, but the stats say differently:

• About 75% of the benefit will go to households making $88,000 or less per year, according to the Penn Wharton Budget Model analysis
• Nearly 45% of borrowers, or 20 million people, will have their debt fully canceled, according to the White House.
• The first $10,000 of debt relief would move over half a million Black Americans from negative to positive net worth

Show me a government initiative of this flavor that has the ability to instantly change 20+ million peoples lives and allow them to improve their future and become greater contributors and pieces of our economy and society.

And yes, I agree with everyone that the student loan/college tuition reality needs to be overhauled, but that's not likely to change anytime soon. At least this is action in that arena and maybe, possibly, this will lead to more interest/action in the world of college funding?

Political pandering or not, democrats want action now and Biden's delivering on his pledge. The longer term hope is that the $520B cost of this initiative will not actually create federal outlays or direct taxpayer payments. In theory, the government has essentially agreed to no longer be reimbursed for loans it already disbursed, along with interest. Higher education experts have noted that many of these loans were never going to be fully paid back anyway because they were set to be forgiven eventually anyways.

/rant

[californiagrown]

Whre can i take out a loan to pay off this $8560 (or $1000 depending on how its calc'ed)?

[Cisco Kid]

Tony Saprano

[total_immortal]

The clear lack of understanding how taxes and government budgets work in this thread is astounding, even coming from somewhat intelligent mags.

For everyone griping that they have to pay $1k or whatever to cover the cost of student loan forgiveness, just remember if you are using that math, every tax payer paid ~$1300 in 2021 to subsidize the oil industry to the tune of $440 billion.

[californiagrown]

The clear lack of understanding how taxes and government budgets work in this thread is astounding, even coming from somewhat intelligent mags.

For everyone griping that they have to pay $1k or whatever to cover the cost of student loan forgiveness, just remember if you are using that math, every tax payer paid ~$1300 in 2021 to subsidize the oil industry to the tune of $440 billion.

The harder you drive your lifted gas guzzler, the better ROI you get on that subsidy.

[skaredshtles]

The harder you drive your lifted gas guzzler, the better ROI you get on that subsidy.

Truth right here.

[Danno]

The clear lack of understanding how taxes and government budgets work in this thread is astounding, even coming from somewhat intelligent mags.

For everyone griping that they have to pay $1k or whatever to cover the cost of student loan forgiveness, just remember if you are using that math, every tax payer paid ~$1300 in 2021 to subsidize the oil industry to the tune of $440 billion.

No, no, no, you are clearly using the wrong math. You're supposed to use Kevo's math, looking only at the taxpaying individuals and households. See, those of us who pay taxes are actually each paying $11,733 to subsidize the oil industry.

[JimmyCarter]

I don’t know why I find this breakdown so depressing.



https://datalab.usaspending.gov/amer...ue/categories/

[54-46]

Anyone take/cite to any action on improving this situation this yet? Anyone write their congressperson or senator? Start a go fund me for blue collar workers? Or are we all just flapping gums here?


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