Ukraine

[Cono Este]

Here is an interview with a Ukranian mercenary describing massive corruption. Even his own weapons missing from the armory. Rockets etc. the channel is hosted by an Australian Vet who traveled extensively in Ukraine before and after war.

I realize to most of you he’s probably a Russian plant, and the mercenary a Russian spy, and this could ever happen in such a country, and the main stream media would surely be reporting such experiences if true, but in case any of you are thinking about quitting your day jobs and heading over there it’s worth a listen before you head over there.

https://youtu.be/hv6SCndQBXY

[MultiVerse]

• The story is in fact receiving media coverage because Ukraine arrested the military administrative head of the foreign legion after an internal investigation uncovered corruption
• The Ukrainian government is systematically uncovering Russian FSB assets at all levels of government so it's entirely possible they exist as administrators for the foreign legion since it's a main Putin talking point
• The foreign legion volunteer in the video points out the Russian military is much, much worse than the Ukrainian military
• The soldier is describing his experience during the first few months of the war so it's worth mentioning the majority of foreign fighters are now fighting with regular army groups other than the International Legion
• The U.S. State Department along with most Western counterparts warned veterans about the dangers of joining the fight in Ukraine saying it is like no conflict they've experienced before and that they run the risk of falling prey to Russian propaganda if captured
• Under international law Ukrainian foreign legion soldiers are not mercenaries because they sign up as regular members of the armed forces. Unlike Russia's mercenary Wagner group for example, a member of the armed forces is not a mercenary

Russia labeled Ukraine’s foreign fighters as “mercenaries” so it's unfortunate Cono chose to adopt yet another Putin talking point.

[highangle]

• Under international law Ukrainian foreign legion soldiers are not mercenaries because they sign up as regular member of armed forces. A member of the armed forces is not a mercenary

Russia labeled Ukraine’s foreign fighters as “mercenaries” so it's no surprise Cono would adopt yet another Putin talking point.

Maybe Cornhole needs to sell his 3rd world lifestyle insurance door to door in Russia since he loves The Poot so goddamn much?

[Cono Este]

Question.

I’ve been at the lake and out of touch.

If the Russians are occupying the reactor, how is it they are shelling themselves?

[dunfree]

Interesting that cunty chose to amplify a “Ukraine bad” soldier story at the same time a Russian soldier “Russia really shitty” story is getting English language coverage https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...raine-invasion

[jono]

Question.

I’ve been at the lake and out of touch.

If the Russians are occupying the reactor, how is it they are shelling themselves?

They're not shelling themselves, they're shelling where they aren't. This is easier when you know where your people are. The reactor complex is big and if you don't plan to hit your people you can also use near misses of the complex for the false flag purpose.

[Cono Este]

Cono Este’s highly revered British Army tried to do exactly that, and got slaughtered.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_campaign


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

The same army Col. Beckworth said we needed to model ours after?

And I believe he out ranks you cockswain.

[highangle]

Same army Col. Beckworth said we needed to model itself after.

And I believe he out ranks you cockswain.

Gallipoli was WWI, bro. And if you want to go further back, the British Army suffered some defeats at Yorktown and Cowpens too...

But the SAS that Chargin' Charlie Beckwith modeled Delta after didn't even get started until WWII, and was but a tiny volunteer semi-unit of the British Army in N. Africa - like, 50 guys out of a half million. And Operation Eagle Claw would have worked had it not devolved into a combined forces operation.



I'm sure Branson was great. Hope you had your dream weekend.

[ex-powderbroker]

Long article about the FSB in Ukraine:

https://www.stripes.com/theaters/eur...e-7036228.html

[Cono Este]

I feel bad posting this on a Friday, hopefully you can handle it without beating your cats and dogs.

Criticism of Zelensky.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...w-warn-of-war/

[m2711c]

….and?

[jono]

It makes them (and Bunny) blood brothers. They all lived in denial together until Zelensky broke the pact.

[frorider]

I feel bad posting this on a Friday, hopefully you can handle it without beating your cats and dogs.

Criticism of Zelensky.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...w-warn-of-war/

FFS, this kind of debate is part of a functioning democracy. The article generally paints a ‘his warnings probably might not have made any difference, since the invasion possibility was already out there’ and ‘his administration did a lot of good things but here are things that could have been done better’ vibe.

I look fwd to the same healthy debates in Russian media about Putin

[Cono Este]

FFS, this kind of debate is part of a functioning democracy. The article generally paints a ‘his warnings probably might not have made any difference, since the invasion possibility was already out there’ and ‘his administration did a lot of good things but here are things that could have been done better’ vibe.

I look fwd to the same healthy debates in Russian media about Putin

Wow, thanks for your kindness. You have a great weekend.

[PB]

RLY ??? THAT triggered you? I sentence thee to two years pondering the meanings of even-handed and false equivalency.

[neufox47]

That’s Cono 101. Try to troll with some bullshit false equivalency that makes him feel superior, get shot down because his point is flawed, then play the victim and whine about how mean everyone is.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[LongShortLong]

Wtf... all ukrainians i met prior 2020 knew that the separtists are russians in tshirts fighting on eastern ukrainian territory!!! Fact! The international comunity just closed their eyes for years. They shot a klm.... no response
Nobody wanted to get pulled in this conflict.
All knew around the globe. Dont fuck with russia.
They are reckless motherfuckers.
The war started 2014!
Where were the blue helmets???
No UN blue helmets or what so ever.


PEACE

I've been watching this 2019 lecture series on power and politics
Ian Shapiro hasn't discussed Ukraine in any detail. However, he has rehashed a lot of recent history, filling in gaps I either missed, or our astute media missed. In any case, internationalism in 2014 was suffering from both the collapse of neoliberalism, and the abject failure of neoconservatism. The US/NATO/UN had involved themselves in various conflicts where their involvement worsened situations rather than improving them. So there wouldn't have been much motivation for blue helmets.

Also, traditionally, the US and Russia have stayed out of each other's conflicts. Something about a MAD theory, thought to have contributed to decades of relative peace and development. Nobody's eager to kill that golden goose.

One criticism offered is that the US has had no well-defined foreign policy since the Bush-Cheney imperialism. Obama articulated nothing. Trump favored nothing. Biden, maybe he's having a senior moment and forgot? Oh yeah - "we're back" but we still don't have a policy, and US credibility isn't great either.

The UN tried Responsibility to Protect in the aftermath of Rwanda and Kosovo, but involvement and failure in the Arab Spring has left that idea damaged. There's also been several more recent genocides allowed with minimal action beyond hand-wringing.

I'd call the international community not so much blind, as politically weakened. IMO, Bush^H^H^H^H we fucked ourselves hard post 9/11, and we'll continue paying for that for decades. If the US can declare imperialism, why shouldn't Russia, or China, or anyone entrepreneurial?

Peace... how do we get there?

[LongShortLong]

I don't think people looked away, so much as the politics were in a bad state. Many countries condemned Russia's 2014 actions in Ukraine and applied sanctions. However, to have military intervention in 2014 is difficult. The developed democratic countries may have desired action, but they don't usually act without the US. US has the expeditionary forces that can lead a military action. Maybe France and Britain have some limited capability.

I think everyone knew Russia invaded in 2014. Russia did have some thin cover with the Crimea antics and Ukraine's civil war. Like you say, does anyone really want to directly confront a nuclear power? Along that line, nobody wants a fair fight either. And there's a general principle of not militarily interfering in other countries' affairs. So if we're going to interfere, let's try our luck against someone weak.

We may be on one of the best paths. I suppose an alternate good path is the Ukrainians actually loved brother Russia, and welcomed the liberators (ignoring the 2014 invasion). Somehow I hear the "liberator" story in far more wars than it is true. On the current path, Ukraine received military training and military goods. Enough to mount resistance stronger than many expected. I don't see any path without massive human rights abuses. Say the Ukrainians received no support... they'd be fighting resistance actions until the Russians "reeducated" or exterminated them. So while the city demolition and death are horrible, the Russians inflict mass suffering in any scenario.

I do think it's probably time to arm Ukraine as fast as possible with the best weapons (that we're willing to export). It's difficult for me to say this isn't happening. Well... we could have shipped a bunch of Abrams and trained a bunch of tank crews, and I don't think we have... Although, a tank crew is little use without a huge logistics system to support them. So maybe this is most armed. At ~$10M each, 400 Abrams would cost $4B. So $40B may be a decent budget, just need to figure out which weapons work best.

And there's the question of cost and who's going to pay for it. I'm under the impression the US is footing the bill for what is a European War. I personally favor Ukraine's cause, but my taxes and massive debt in my name is already financing 2 tremendously expensive GWOT wars. The US fiscal house is a disaster, as are the politics. There's not a lot of space for a war. $40B, ok. $400B, hmm maybe... $4T, probably not. My guess is while we've officially committed $40B, this costs the US a lot more even if it ends this year. Are the Europeans freeloading, or is the US too warlike? EU economy is similar to US, cough up some dough, eh?

And somebody start thinking about the end state. Is Ukraine a stable country? How does Russia rejoin the international community? Anybody heard the poli-sci types pontificate?

[MultiVerse]

I don't thing there needs to be a dominant narrative that covers all situations. Supporting Ukraine’s self-defense is in the West’s interest because Ukraine is committed to liberal democracy. Liberal democracies like Ukraine and Taiwan being turned into puppet states of autocratic regimes makes the world more dangerous and less peaceful.

In that sense helping an existing democracy under siege isn't in any way comparable to the conflicts mentioned above. It starts with a belief that a free society is worth fighting for followed by recognizing every other alternative is worse for the increasingly embattled free world.

It's hard if not impossible to predict the endgame. The danger Russia poses to the world if it loses are real. The danger Russia poses to the world if it wins is worse. Every other option apart from supporting Ukraine’s self-defense, is worse.

[MultiVerse]

FWIW, the variables:

1. Putin’s aims go beyond Ukraine. Russia now has a permanent naval base on the Mediterranean, has close ties with its historic enemy Iran, and continues to sow political instability in Africa and elsewhere
2. NATO policies didn’t cause the Ukraine war
3. Russian atrocities and scorched earth tactics are unlike anything else in the developed world's recent history, and are legitimately comparable to the German NAZI regime
4. Diplomacy is needed, but the U.S. is not responsible for ending the war because:

• Ukrainians will reject any deal
• Russia cannot be trusted to negotiate in good faith
• Forcing Ukraine to give up territory means condemning millions to live under violent genocidal repression
• Ukraine is putting up a helluva fight and most Westerners recognize a fight for freedom when they see it
• In contrast, the majority of Russians are ambivalent and don't support general mobilization
• If the Russian economy continues to worsen support in Russia such as it is will fall even more
• Supporting Ukraine’s self-defense is in the West’s interest

[summit]

^Well summarized, Mutiverse.

Also, traditionally, the US and Russia have stayed out of each other's conflicts.

This is where I stopped reading. Have you totally missed the last 75 years of the US and Russia being ears deep in each other's conflicts?

[LongShortLong]

^Well summarized, Mutiverse.



This is where I stopped reading. Have you totally missed the last 75 years of the US and Russia being ears deep in each other's conflicts?

Have US and Russia ever gone head to head? It's always a proxy fight, just like this. I don't pretend to think any of them were clean, nor do I think this one is. I may have missed one, but I don't think Russian and American generals have officially opposed each other. It's always full contact diplomacy in all its forms but direct war.

In theory, the US could resume the Bush Doctrine imperialism and colonize (democratize) Russia. There's just no precedent besides the precedent of there's always surprises. I think this is pretty far from the reasonable options, we'll probably fall back on some form of containment, and decades of pariah status for Russians. Leading to more decades of pariah status?

[TBS]

And there's the question of cost and who's going to pay for it. I'm under the impression the US is footing the bill for what is a European War. I personally favor Ukraine's cause, but my taxes and massive debt in my name is already financing 2 tremendously expensive GWOT wars. The US fiscal house is a disaster, as are the politics. There's not a lot of space for a war. $40B, ok. $400B, hmm maybe... $4T, probably not. My guess is while we've officially committed $40B, this costs the US a lot more even if it ends this year. Are the Europeans freeloading, or is the US too warlike? EU economy is similar to US, cough up some dough, eh?

The Euros are gonna pay a big price economically in fuel prices compared to USA. They also lack the sheer scale of the US’ military industrial complex.

And Russia will collapse long before the US has to provide even $100 billion. Remember, Russia’s pre-invasion GDP was only $1.5T and military spending about $65billion.

The recent increase in energy prices will not offset the sanctions, despite what Rod sez. Not to mention their inability to source war matériel at any price

[MultiVerse]

It's always a proxy fight, just like this.

Russia says the West is fighting a proxy war in Ukraine. Even though the definition of a proxy war is vague, Russia is wrong because so far the West's objective is overall aligned with Ukraine's objective: to end the Russian invasion and maintain Ukraine's status as a free country.

Whereas a proxy war as most commonly understood means powerful countries using proxies to achieve their own aims separate from the aims of the less powerful country in which the war is being fought.

Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom and in a very real sense all the narratives that put the United States at the center of the conflict is an insult to what Ukraine is trying to achieve.

[beer30]

So those guys who went over to help the Ukrainian? 20 killed in a Russian airstrike today.