Leg extensions. Worth it or worthless

[fool]

Great discussion all.

Something like this […]
The first two pairs of exercises are about managing my fucked up lower back (I should have quite coaching wrestling a few years sooner than I did). If I have tightness in my butt/hips/core that pulls my back out of alignment even a little it hurts like hell. I find strengthening those muscles to be far more important than stretching them (although I do enjoy smoking a bowl and getting a deep stretch in).

/blog

That’s awesome - thanks, ISBD. Good stuff. FWIW, a friend’s parents swore by this “foundation back routine.” Might be worth checking out (it gives me a workout but my back is fine): https://youtu.be/4BOTvaRaDjI

You guys should be following John Collinson on Insta.
https://instagram.com/johncollinson?...dium=copy_link

And Jeff Cavaliere isn’t a skier but his knowledge linking PT and weight/strength training is phenomenal.
https://youtube.com/c/athleanx

Followed - and inspired - thanks.

Let me start off by saying that I am an entirely unremarkable athlete. I don't suck at my sports of choice, but compared to the people who are truly good I totally suck. I'm a professional scientist, but my field is not exercise physiology or any other related discipline. If you want professional advice talk to XtrPickles.
[…]
As a base, I try to incorporate a lot of activity into my basic daily life.
[…]
You get the idea. There's something about small bouts of activity throughout the day that really clicks with me. In summer when I tend to lift less (so that I can ride and run more) these can be almost 100% of my lifting. It’s awesome to get home from the office and have no need to work out.
[…]
Going into fall I tend to bias towards less riding and more “running” (hike up, run down, aka the RunDown^TM) to get my eccentric loading resilience tuned up prior to ski season. I also start doing more heavy barbell work and proper gym workouts, especially after DST ends.

Awesome - thanks, DTM. The more I try to get “good” or “better” at anything, how actually good and incredible the good people actually are. So it’s definitely all relative…but the process is fun nonetheless.

Love the advice. I have a timer that goes off ~7 times a day as a reminder to do push-ups, but I think incorporating some of the more diverse workouts you have is a great idea.

Finally over the past 5 maybe 6 idk months I've committed to yoga. Wake up to a 15 minute daily and then a longer one 4, 5, 6 days a week. I'm consistently inconsistent, but I'm always doing something. Somehow I keep getting old though. So I drink a beer, eat an edible, wake up and go again. Not dead yet.

Jack, not sure where/how you’re doing yoga, but YogaGlo - now known as "Glo" - is great. I haven’t done it recently but in the past I've liked classes from Darren Rhodes, Jason Crandell, Jo Tatsula, Tiffany Cruikshank. There are a lot of great instructors and the price is $18/month for unlimited, which is silly cheap.

It's hard because I have a seemingly endless well of motivation for endurance stuff and that's been fine for me in general, but as I get deeper into my 40s the need for strength for its own sake and to prevent injuries seems more pressing.

How do you talk yourself into a gym session instead of a bike ride, which would be way more fun?

Not sure if this is directed DTM or thread in general but...
Depending on your perspective - and age, body, etc. - I’m not sure a full-blown gym-only session is needed. As a runner, I try to do ~10mins of stability/core after most easy runs and a 10-20min strength workout - bodyweight or dumbbell/KB, no bars - 2x/week. So endurance is still the priority but a little strength/stability “tax” helps. And then I think DTM’s point of short intermittent workouts throughout the day is a wise one. But, I know from the bike thread that you have a lot of fitness experience/knowledge, Evan, so maybe at some point, 1-2 strength sessions are *needed* for injury prevention. I imagine 45min or less sessions would be enough, but maybe that’s just coming from someone not in their 40s.

[Dantheman]

Quoting for recognition of excellence. I'm feeling the need to incorporate more strength stuff into my life now that I'm not physically working as much myself (it's nice to have employees but they take all of the hard work and leave me to write checks).

It's hard because I have a seemingly endless well of motivation for endurance stuff and that's been fine for me in general, but as I get deeper into my 40s the need for strength for its own sake and to prevent injuries seems more pressing.

How do you talk yourself into a gym session instead of a bike ride, which would be way more fun?

A lifting session takes way less time than a ride so I normally lift on days where I can't get out for a ride anyway. Plus there's all the stuff I manage to do during my work day, and I lift more in the winter due to weather. It's not usually an either/or situation for me.

If you need motivation then watch Dylan Johnson's video about lifting for cyclists--there's direct proven benefits to the enormous amount of riding you do. Resistance training also slows down age-related muscle loss much better than endurance exercise. It's a real concern as 40s become 50s, 60s and beyond.

eta: Lifting also can be very addictive early on when the gainz come fast and easy.

[jackstraw]

.

Hope this helps.

Thank you

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How do you talk yourself into a gym session instead of a bike ride, which would be way more fun?

Exactly. That was the biggest thing for me to overcome. I finally convinced myself it was necessary. When I first started I was barely using any weight and just doing a lot of reps. You notice slight gains and it kinda grows on you. I still prefer being outside but I've noticed benefits from weight and body weight training. I'm not looking to bulk up, just tone for our sports, so taking it casually with no real goal worked for me. I just kept going back even if I took a week or two off in the beginning. Now it has become a habit and I feel like I need to do it.

Great discussion all.

.



Jack, not sure where/how you’re doing yoga, but YogaGlo - now known as "Glo" - is great. I haven’t done it recently but in the past I've liked classes from Darren Rhodes, Jason Crandell, Jo Tatsula, Tiffany Cruikshank. There are a lot of great instructors and the price is $18/month for unlimited, which is silly cheap.

Right on, I'll check it out. Right now I just use YouTube. Yoga with Adrienne is very good. Her strong suit is she's a great "teacher" and I like her vibe, which is very important. I also do a few others on YouTube.

[Dantheman]

I'm not looking to bulk up, just tone for our sports

Unless you have exceptional genetics truly "bulking up" is actually quite difficult. Further, bodybuilders tend to do most of their work in the 8-12 rep range. High-weight/low-rep work (2-5 reps per set) actually produces less hypertrophy, on average. The hypertrophy that does occur also tends to be more myofibrillar rather than sarcoplasmic.

[jackstraw]

Unless you have exceptional genetics

Dude, wtf? Of course I do. I'm a maggot.

[zion zig zag]

Unless you have exceptional genetics truly "bulking up" is actually quite difficult.

I ever tell you about the time I did GOMAD for a month on a bet? I did put on 15 pounds but it turns out some of that may have been impacted poo.

[Dantheman]

I remember you posting about that, but didn't know it was done on a bet. I threw up in my mouth a little just thinking about doing it for a day.

[bean]

Unless you have exceptional genetics truly "bulking up" is actually quite difficult.

Dudes everywhere thinking they're going to accidentally turn in to Arnold if they walk in to a weight room.

As someone who doesn't get paid to be in shape, I see a lot of value in carrying an extra 10lb of muscle and potentially being slightly slower on the uphills in exchange for quality of life improvements.

[muted reborn]

Just bought a standing desk for the first time. Training complete!

[jackstraw]

Dudes everywhere thinking they're going to accidentally turn in to Arnold if they walk in to a weight room.

From what I've seen with weight room toolbags, that is their goal.

[Dantheman]

Just bought a standing desk for the first time. Training complete!

Ease into it.

From what I've seen with weight room toolbags, that is their goal.

There's definitely plenty of those guys. I lift at home for a reason. Well, for several reasons, but that's a big one. Spending hours working out just to flex on stage in your underwear or get Instagram likes is baffling. The bottom line though is that at least 95% of people who lift weights will never have a FFMI above 23-24 without steroids no matter what they do. The <5% that do achieve that without gear are genetic outliers who also dedicate their entire waking lives to lifting and eating.

[jackstraw]

^yeah, I'm lucky. We have a small gym and shower at my office. I've never belonged to a gym but we all know the type.


https://youtu.be/q7gzmoqmL7g

[iriponsnow]

Resistance training also slows down age-related muscle loss much better than endurance exercise. It's a real concern as 40s become 50s, 60s and beyond.

^This. Just know that any tissue level changes will be 12-14 weeks, so stay the course & work the diet.

One of the concepts I ask of my clients is to accurately assess their baseline & then slightly try to exceed it on a routine basis.

[Hopeless Sinner]

Got through the 4th session of mini leg blasters. Started w 5 sets, up to 9 now. Kind of weak on the split jumps cause I'm old, fat and slow. Still around 7 weeks to go, probably won't complete the 10 sets of full leg blasters until mid-Dec.

[iriponsnow]

Got through the 4th session of mini leg blasters. Started w 5 sets, up to 9 now. Kind of weak on the split jumps cause I'm old, fat and slow. Still around 7 weeks to go, probably won't complete the 10 sets of full leg blasters until mid-Dec.

See above. If you are exceeding your baseline status on a regular basis with anything athletic, that's a win. If you make it habitual, all the better. Good luck!

[2FUNKY]

Got through the 4th session of mini leg blasters. Started w 5 sets, up to 9 now. Kind of weak on the split jumps cause I'm old, fat and slow. Still around 7 weeks to go, probably won't complete the 10 sets of full leg blasters until mid-Dec.

Drop one rep off the others and add two to the split jumps. Once that feels fine go back to equal reps.

[bry]

This series with John Leffler from Deb Armstrong is worth checking out...

https://youtu.be/KvlcM9l0c8g


Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk

[fool]

Just got an ad on Instagram for a John Collison-directed workout via the Fit! app. Seems intriguing - anyone tried it or have experience with the Fit! app?

App
John's 8-week Routine

[Hopeless Sinner]

See above. If you are exceeding your baseline status on a regular basis with anything athletic, that's a win. If you make it habitual, all the better. Good luck!

Thanks, 3x week, until Thanksgiving, then 2x week.

Drop one rep off the others and add two to the split jumps. Once that feels fine go back to equal reps.

I have the idea, but my split jumps are pretty fake - still do more? Will work on doing a more taxing split jump in any case. (Form on the other 3 is good.)


Got up to 10x mini so added full blasters.


Roughly session #12 now at 2 full blasters and 5 minis. 1-5-1 Rough w a mask on.

[californiagrown]

Got double promoted at work (one was worked for, immediately followed by the boss leaving and me being the only person even loosly qualified to take on that role), and then had a kid a few weeks back. I needed to be extra efficient with my time, so i finally got a home gym setup. It had always been a dream and just makes sense. Due to lack of sleep and general stress ive dropped volume down pretty far and just get in six 30 min workouts per week (P/P/L split)...back to the very basics, only focusing on progressing squats, everything else focused on maintaining. No deadlifts as my CNS recovery is compromised, so only RDLs for hinge pattern. In November ill start adding in leg blasters as actual training at the end of the leg sessions, but for now i just do two mini blasters as a warmup on leg day.

whatever i have done in years past though, Alpental still beats me the fuck down for first 4-5 days skiing until i ski myself into shape. There is just nothing like forcing your muscles to repeatedly react at max effort in life/limb threatening situations.

[Dantheman]

I'm around 185. I can't squat 370 6 times. If I could, I'd be a better skier. Beyond that it wouldn't matter much unless I was hucking 50 foot cliffs. Which I'm not.

This post has been circling around in the back of my brain since it was posted. I'm not sure that being able to squat 2x BW for six reps would actually make you a better skier or make you better at stomping big airs than being able to squat 2x BW for 1-2 reps. Skiing in general, and stomping big airs in particular, is much more about power than pure strength. Power has a time component that strength does not. Stomping a big air not only requires the ability to produce a force equal to some unknown multiple of your BW (and to be able to resist the rotational force created by landing on a inclined plane, but that's a different discussion), but to do it in a very narrow sub-second window of time.

Here's a video of elite gymnast Carl Paoli coaching Jason Khalipa on how to do a standing backflip. One thing he mentions is that speed lifts like cleans and snatches are much better predictors of whether he can teach someone to do a standing backflip than pure strength lifts like the squat. I think the same applies to skiing and stompability especially. Goes from around 6:00-9:00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwSlZ2WMrx0

[EWG]

This post has been circling around in the back of my brain since it was posted. I'm not sure that being able to squat 2x BW for six reps would actually make you a better skier or make you better at stomping big airs than being able to squat 2x BW for 1-2 reps. Skiing in general, and stomping big airs in particular, is much more about power than pure strength. Power has a time component that strength does not. Stomping a big air not only requires the ability to produce a force equal to some unknown multiple of your BW (and to be able to resist the rotational force created by landing on a inclined plane, but that's a different discussion), but to do it in a very narrow sub-second window of time.

Here's a video of elite gymnast Carl Paoli coaching Jason Khalipa on how to do a standing backflip. One thing he mentions is that speed lifts like cleans and snatches are much better predictors of whether he can teach someone to do a standing backflip than pure strength lifts like the squat. I think the same applies to skiing and stompability especially. Goes from around 6:00-9:00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwSlZ2WMrx0

This is a great conversation. That said, I'll bet no one besides us is gonna geek out on it.

There's a kinetic and dexterity component to speed lifts which, I agree, is a big part of pure power generated for a single rep. However, the current professional trainer rule of thumb is that it really is pure strength. For example, this article and quote: https://www.stack.com/a/how-your-dea...ke-you-faster/

“I can determine with 99.7 percent accuracy what your 40-Yard Dash time is based on your strength-to-weight ratio,” declares Ryan Flaherty, CEO of Prolific Athletes (Carlsbad, California) and trainer to elite athletes such as Marcus Mariota and Russell Wilson.

But I'm not sure how transferable that is to non-trained athletes (normal people) who haven't been coached on proper technique. In other words, if you don't know how to sprint, then a lot of that force is wasted.

All that training philosophy is built on 1 rep maxes, however, so your point probably remains - doesn't matter if you can squat 360 once or six times, if that's your max, that's your max. Having said that, if you can squat it 6 times your max should be much higher.

Interesting that deadlift is supposed to be 2x for NCAA athletes.

I will say that in covid I've been squatting again, and last season was night and day for me skiing, especially in tight, off balance, quick technical spots and in flat out speed runs. Not to mention landings. The extra strength was massive for control.

This is also kind of interesting for different lift standards:
https://www.livestrong.com/article/3...rage-man-lift/

[californiagrown]

Th other benefit of being able to squat 370 for 6 vs for 2 is that you have essentially gotten in better endurance shape by doing so (assuming body weight and other muscles equal). If you only have to put out 85% effort to squat 370 once vs having to put out +95% effort who is gonna have fresher legs for the next big impact/landing?

Frankly, its pretty easy and quick to get in good (not world class) cardio/endurance shape. It takes much much longer to achieve high levels of strength (months to years) than it does to gain high levels of endurance (weeks)... and being strong carries over into the endurance aspect as described above. Endurance does diddly for pure top-end strength. Yes, the exceptions are the tail ends of the spectrum for both.

In terms of power, there are a number of studies out there showing that plyometric exercises have minimal benefit until a high level of baseline strength is achieved first as strength is the limiting factor instead of neural muscle response time, and without the baseline stength level plyometrics beat the shit out of your joints.

[Dantheman]

There's a kinetic and dexterity component to speed lifts which, I agree, is a big part of pure power generated for a single rep. However, the current professional trainer rule of thumb is that it really is pure strength. For example, this article and quote: https://www.stack.com/a/how-your-dea...ke-you-faster/

“I can determine with 99.7 percent accuracy what your 40-Yard Dash time is based on your strength-to-weight ratio,” declares Ryan Flaherty, CEO of Prolific Athletes (Carlsbad, California) and trainer to elite athletes such as Marcus Mariota and Russell Wilson.

But I'm not sure how transferable that is to non-trained athletes (normal people) who haven't been coached on proper technique. In other words, if you don't know how to sprint, then a lot of that force is wasted.

Super interesting article, thanks. He says in the article that strength trumps technique by a large margin. But, that's for sprint speed which is a more natural movement. For something entirely unnatural like skiing I would think technique plays a larger role.

Having said that, if you can squat it 6 times your max should be much higher.

For sure. If your 6RM is 2x BW your 1RM is probably at least 2.5x BW. For men at least, my understanding is that it's a bit different for women.

Interesting that deadlift is supposed to be 2x for NCAA athletes.

Indeed. I couldn't have played at the community college level, but I pulled 2x BW for a triple last week and hadn't DL'ed in two months. Hellooo ego boost!

I will say that in covid I've been squatting again, and last season was night and day for me skiing, especially in tight, off balance, quick technical spots and in flat out speed runs. Not to mention landings. The extra strength was massive for control.

I don't doubt that. All I'm saying is that there is probably a point of diminishing returns. Where that point lies is hard to say, and most recreational athletes will probably never reach it, myself very much included. But, it's probably worth doing some fast lifts as well. Just something basic like power cleans that doesn't require bumpers and pro coaching. I can't help but wonder if this is also part of the reason that the split jumps and squat jumps in LBs are part of the reason they're so effective.

his is also kind of interesting for different lift standards:
https://www.livestrong.com/article/3...rage-man-lift/

The WRs in the lighter weight classes are the ones that blow my mind the most. C&J'ing 375 lbs while weighing 56 kilos is completely bananas.

[Dantheman]

Th other benefit of being able to squat 370 for 6 vs for 2 is that you have essentially gotten in better endurance shape by doing so (assuming body weight and other muscles equal). If you only have to put out 85% effort to squat 370 once vs having to put out +95% effort who is gonna have fresher legs for the next big impact/landing?

Intuitively, this makes sense. On the ground I think it's more complicated. It's hard to overstate how beastly squatting 2x BW for 6 reps really is. Unless you're a genetic outlier there's a level of commitment required to get there that probably doesn't directly translate to much better skiing compared to the guy who can do it for a double.

eta: If you go to the ExRx link in the second article EWG linked to (https://exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/SquatStandards) the "Elite" standards are ~2.7x BW. 2x BW for six reps probably means your 1RM is close to or above the "Elite" level.

I have video of AC squatting 250 at a BW of ~160. That's the "Elite" level for women, which is pretty cool.

Frankly, its pretty easy and quick to get in good (not world class) cardio/endurance shape. It takes much much longer to achieve high levels of strength (months to years) than it does to gain high levels of endurance (weeks)

Strength gains also come really fast at the novice level. Equivalently high levels of endurance and strength are both long-term commitments.