To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[Mazderati]

People should just get their fucking shots, but I really wish they’d do it on their own because it’s good sensible science instead of more heavy handed approaches.

[Salvelinusconfluentus]

yep and I CHOOSE to go there right? I dont HAVE to....a lot of you are missing that simple distinction it seems.

We start with restaurants and concerts, it slowly slips to Costcos and other retail places, then, Walmart falls prey to it...what do those IDless follks do now? Please enlighten me oh wise ones...

We requiring VAX ID's when we arrest folks? Before they enter into General population in prison? Not that i've heard...

Most grocery stores and restaurants can accommodate the unvaxxed and unwilling to mask with curbside pick up. Most things can be bought online. Prisons/jails can be segregated by vax status.

[The AD]

We start with restaurants and concerts, it slowly slips to Costcos and other retail places, then, Walmart falls prey to it...what do those IDless follks do now? Please enlighten me oh wise ones..

I already mentioned this, but if your assertion is that these people have not been able to get vaccinated due to lack of time or the ability to get to a vax site, how about have vaccine sites at places like Walmart? "We're sorry, we can't let you in without a vax card, but the good news is you can walk ten steps over to that tent and get your first shot today." Let's start removing the excuses for not being vaccinated.

[bodywhomper]

Has the reluctance of some healthcare unions to support vax mandates already been discussed? What’s their reason? Is this a negotiation/collective bargaining thing?

Here are some healthcare unions that seem to oppose the mandates:
Oregon Nurses Association

S.E.I.U. Local 1000, https://www.seiu1000.org/sites/main/...to_bargain.pdf

SEIU local 1199 (largest healthcare union in the country): https://www.1199seiu.org/vaccine-yes-mandate-no

[rideit]

I already mentioned this, but if your assertion is that these people have not been able to get vaccinated due to lack of time or the ability to get to a vax site, how about have vaccine sites at places like Walmart? "We're sorry, we can't let you in without a vax card, but the good news is you can walk ten steps over to that tent and get your first shot today." Let's start removing the excuses for not being vaccinated.

^^^^^dingdingsing^^^^^ They do vaxes at Walmart, for Chris sakes. You got time to buy a pack of smokes, you got time for a vax.

[Buster Highmen]

Yeah, the tech-surveillance big-business/big-govt complex is something that makes me nervous…and I don’t think it’s an unreasonable nervousness, coming from the point of view of my generally abnormal and poorly-regarded values…valuing shits and grins more than hard work…valuing free time more than money, etc. Example: sometimes people seem to get really personally annoyed that I recreate a lot and work an odd, light schedule and don’t have kids. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who are genuinely butthurt that I ski every day, or ride motorcycles a lot…walk my dog in the middle of the day “don’t you work?”…etc. So the idea that my life belongs to them, that I owe the system 50 hours of labor a week and to parent several future laborers… I have encountered that way too much to discount how many people feel that way…and I think, for me, those interactions put a kind of sinister edge on the collectivism in our culture.

Agree on a lot of that. I think a lot of us here recognize we're misfits to one extent or another. This place has provided some sense of community for me which is lacking elsewhere.

Plus, I drive for a living so I lived in the govt/business hours-of-service scheme: 70 hour workweek, 14 hour work days. I worked in the forest service doing 16 hour days 14 days on, 2 off. No concern in those systems about any aspect of the human being except his production of labor. I now accept working with like 7 cameras on me, I have to break rules to go pee sometimes. It’s not a stretch at all to imagine more control just further penning people into these systems that only view us in terms of squeezing maximum production out of us.. The amazon warehouse time-on-task stuff…the way the algorithms allocate labor budgets at my wife’s corporate job…there’s so much where I see how the powers in control have ZERO concern about overall quality of life for people in the working class. It’s like, basically, or lives are meaningless to the systems managing this society except for trying to wring the maximum amount of labor and consumerism out of us, get our votes, and keep us good and tired so we don’t get scary and wild with our free time….or somehow fail to support ourselves, or live too long past retirement age.

Also spot on, but mostly having to do with businesses, not our government.

And now you add another layer of control, based on public health. The nervousness has real roots…it has bullshit roots too, but even those are fertilized by all the exploitative tendencies surrounding us.

I think we’re in a weird spot in this country because it’s not like Europe or Canada where there’s institutionalized dignity and respect for regular working people, so they trust their government is actually operating with their best interest as a goal. But it’s also not like China where the people have just given up fighting the malicious government control because they’ve lost the battle long ago.

We have businesses and government trying stuff all the time that’s really not in the interest of regular people and we haven’t stopped trying to fight it yet…so the whole thing is so complicated and ugly with the huge variety of different trust levels in these institutions and huge disparities in how all this is being perceived and handled.

True.

Anyway, I think under those circumstances I do see where adding another layer of tracking and identification meets with hard opposition. People should just get their fucking shots, but I really wish they’d do it on their own because it’s good sensible science instead of more heavy handed approaches.

At the root of it, would all this mandate and vax id stuff be happening if people just gave a shit, masked up and got their shots?

[jono]

Anyway, I think under those circumstances I do see where adding another layer of tracking and identification meets with hard opposition. People should just get their fucking shots, but I really wish they’d do it on their own because it’s good sensible science instead of more heavy handed approaches.

This. And obviously people who demonstrate personal intelligence don't need government control. So find a friend and convince them. Because the infrastructure of coercion will turn into an industrial complex once built.

Refusing a vaccine brings on oppression. As Skidog keeps pointing out, this was never a problem when we had herd immunity against everything.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I do, and I dont ever recall google seeing my DL# and other personal info that is contained on a DL/ID. Hell I have a REAL ID, that has tons of info on it I dont want just "anyone" seeing..

Not everyone has a cell phone either. Check those low income communities and rural communities I have referenced over and over...

I live in an area that has a fairly large number of rural poor and migrant workers, everyone has a smart phone. If someone doesn’t it’s the exception.


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[XXX-er]

Has the reluctance of some healthcare unions to support vax mandates already been discussed? What’s their reason? Is this a negotiation/collective bargaining thing?

Here are some healthcare unions that seem to oppose the mandates:
Oregon Nurses Association

S.E.I.U. Local 1000, https://www.seiu1000.org/sites/main/...to_bargain.pdf

SEIU local 1199 (largest healthcare union in the country): https://www.1199seiu.org/vaccine-yes-mandate-no

just cuz they work in a hospitol they should be smarter you would think

but maybe not ?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

chip chip chip away......thats how it works...keep thinking it doesnt...

Patriot act...instituted during very troubled times, removed many many rights....

but again...lets forget all the people that dont have any of these things? Think about how much of a pain it is to get a new ID if you lost yours...most here are likely pretty organized and can put your hands on all the needed docs...now, that homeless guy, that got all his shit stolen multiple times in his life..has no real need for any form of "ID", cant get a new one because you know he doesnt have an address for correspondence...but I guess there are probably only like 10 of those people in the USA, least according to most here...

Make sure you worry about your "white privilege", and fuck those dirty poor homeless people. If they can't get an ID to get a slice of pizza with the few pennies they could manage begging that day, well so what huh?

What rights did the Patriot Act remove, be specific?


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[XXX-er]

I live in an area that has a fairly large number of rural poor and migrant workers, everyone has a smart phone. If someone doesn’t it’s the exception.


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smart phones are all over the third world, they have apps to buy things with money on the cell phone, i've seen villagers buying stuff at a market by transfering $ on a phone

phones are everywhere in the world

[MagnificentUnicorn]

yep and I CHOOSE to go there right? I dont HAVE to....a lot of you are missing that simple distinction it seems.

We start with restaurants and concerts, it slowly slips to Costcos and other retail places, then, Walmart falls prey to it...what do those IDless follks do now? Please enlighten me oh wise ones...

We requiring VAX ID's when we arrest folks? Before they enter into General population in prison? Not that i've heard...

They do test people when they’re booked and/or in prison reception. Is this a loss of freedom?


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[summit]

Colorado BOH issues an emergency rule mandating COVID vaccines for all healthcare facility workers in CO.

The public commentary at the meeting was mostly painful to listen to. There was a good comment or 3 by a CMO and a CEO. I didn't get a chance to speak, the zoom line was too long. One lady claimed to be Miss Germany and ranted about movies and Bill Gates... she was amusing at least.

Found the BOH meeting recording on YouTube.

Ladies and Gentlemen, MISS GERMANY's 100 seconds of brilliance at 1:52:47

There was also some guy claiming to be a doctor who wanted CDPHE to mandate prophylactic Ivermectin instead of vaccines.

[MultiVerse]

It seems like there's a lot of recency bias and culture war happening with arguments over vaccine mandates. While there are without a doubt very real privacy concerns, Covid is a deadly disease so this is a strange hill to die on. COVID, for example, killed more Americans in a year and half than AIDS did in the last 40 years. And yet 37 states still have laws that criminalize or control behaviors over potentially exposing another person to HIV. The HIV laws are not limited to gays, sex workers, and drug addicts but also include things like blood donations and spitting.

So on the one hand people are protesting vaccine mandates as a threat to personal freedom and on the other quietly ignoring, or even supporting, this sort of thing — not just with HIV but also things like drug testing and so on — for some time.

[AK47bp]

It seems like there's a lot of recency bias and culture war happening with arguments over vaccine mandates. While there are without a doubt very real privacy concerns, Covid is a deadly disease so this is a strange hill to die on. COVID, for example, killed more Americans in a year and half than AIDS did in the last 40 years. And yet 37 states still have laws that criminalize or control behaviors over potentially exposing another person to HIV. The HIV laws are not limited to gays, sex workers, and drug addicts but also include things like blood donations and spitting.

So on the one hand people are protesting vaccine mandates as a threat to personal freedom, and on the other quietly ignoring, or even supporting, this sort of thing — not just with HIV but also things like drug testing — for some time.

Great point.



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[Skidog]

What rights did the Patriot Act remove, be specific?


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I agree with most of these listed here..

https://www.aclu.org/other/surveilla...usapatriot-act

[Skidog]

They do test people when they’re booked and/or in prison reception. Is this a loss of freedom?


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making em get stuck? Didnt think so..

[Buster Highmen]

What rights did the Patriot Act remove, be specific?

At the risk of conflating the two very different issues:

The Patriot Act increases the governments surveillance powers in four areas:

Records searches. It expands the government's ability to look at records on an individual's activity being held by a third parties. (Section 215)
Secret searches. It expands the government's ability to search private property without notice to the owner. (Section 213)
Intelligence searches. It expands a narrow exception to the Fourth Amendment that had been created for the collection of foreign intelligence information (Section 218).
"Trap and trace" searches. It expands another Fourth Amendment exception for spying that collects "addressing" information about the origin and destination of communications, as opposed to the content (Section 214).
1. Expanded access to personal records held by third parties
One of the most significant provisions of the Patriot Act makes it far easier for the authorities to gain access to records of citizens' activities being held by a third party. At a time when computerization is leading to the creation of more and more such records, Section 215 of the Patriot Act allows the FBI to force anyone at all - including doctors, libraries, bookstores, universities, and Internet service providers - to turn over records on their clients or customers.

Unchecked power
The result is unchecked government power to rifle through individuals' financial records, medical histories, Internet usage, bookstore purchases, library usage, travel patterns, or any other activity that leaves a record. Making matters worse:

The government no longer has to show evidence that the subjects of search orders are an "agent of a foreign power," a requirement that previously protected Americans against abuse of this authority.
The FBI does not even have to show a reasonable suspicion that the records are related to criminal activity, much less the requirement for "probable cause" that is listed in the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. All the government needs to do is make the broad assertion that the request is related to an ongoing terrorism or foreign intelligence investigation.
Judicial oversight of these new powers is essentially non-existent. The government must only certify to a judge - with no need for evidence or proof - that such a search meets the statute's broad criteria, and the judge does not even have the authority to reject the application.
Surveillance orders can be based in part on a person's First Amendment activities, such as the books they read, the Web sites they visit, or a letter to the editor they have written.
A person or organization forced to turn over records is prohibited from disclosing the search to anyone. As a result of this gag order, the subjects of surveillance never even find out that their personal records have been examined by the government. That undercuts an important check and balance on this power: the ability of individuals to challenge illegitimate searches.

[Skidog]

At the risk of conflating the two very different issues:

The Patriot Act increases the governments surveillance powers in four areas:

Records searches. It expands the government's ability to look at records on an individual's activity being held by a third parties. (Section 215)
Secret searches. It expands the government's ability to search private property without notice to the owner. (Section 213)
Intelligence searches. It expands a narrow exception to the Fourth Amendment that had been created for the collection of foreign intelligence information (Section 218).
"Trap and trace" searches. It expands another Fourth Amendment exception for spying that collects "addressing" information about the origin and destination of communications, as opposed to the content (Section 214).
1. Expanded access to personal records held by third parties
One of the most significant provisions of the Patriot Act makes it far easier for the authorities to gain access to records of citizens' activities being held by a third party. At a time when computerization is leading to the creation of more and more such records, Section 215 of the Patriot Act allows the FBI to force anyone at all - including doctors, libraries, bookstores, universities, and Internet service providers - to turn over records on their clients or customers.

Unchecked power
The result is unchecked government power to rifle through individuals' financial records, medical histories, Internet usage, bookstore purchases, library usage, travel patterns, or any other activity that leaves a record. Making matters worse:

The government no longer has to show evidence that the subjects of search orders are an "agent of a foreign power," a requirement that previously protected Americans against abuse of this authority.
The FBI does not even have to show a reasonable suspicion that the records are related to criminal activity, much less the requirement for "probable cause" that is listed in the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. All the government needs to do is make the broad assertion that the request is related to an ongoing terrorism or foreign intelligence investigation.
Judicial oversight of these new powers is essentially non-existent. The government must only certify to a judge - with no need for evidence or proof - that such a search meets the statute's broad criteria, and the judge does not even have the authority to reject the application.
Surveillance orders can be based in part on a person's First Amendment activities, such as the books they read, the Web sites they visit, or a letter to the editor they have written.
A person or organization forced to turn over records is prohibited from disclosing the search to anyone. As a result of this gag order, the subjects of surveillance never even find out that their personal records have been examined by the government. That undercuts an important check and balance on this power: the ability of individuals to challenge illegitimate searches.

they are VERY different issues. I apologize for putting them together. It was an example of freedoms being removed, one chip at a time....

[mfcf13]

It's weird how all the conservatives never had a problem with the Patriot Act (probably because it was passed by a Republicans President). But now...they are up in arms over a piece of paper that shows (gasp) the dates that you got your vaccine (and is a piece of paper that is going to be forged a lot anyways). I am sure we can find lots of posts from Skidog from the early 2000s about how awful the Patriot Act is, otherwise he would just be using that as a red herring.

[adrenalated]

Ladies and Gentlemen, MISS GERMANY's 100 seconds of brilliance at 1:52:47

To borrow some words from the Big Lebowski:

WHAT IN GOD'S HOLY NAME ARE YOU BLATHERING ABOUT

[Buster Highmen]

It's weird how all the conservatives never had a problem with the Patriot Act (probably because it was passed by a Republicans President). But now...they are up in arms over a piece of paper that shows (gasp) the dates that you got your vaccine (and is a piece of paper that is going to be forged a lot anyways). I am sure we can find lots of posts from Skidog from the early 2000s about how awful the Patriot Act is, otherwise he would just be using that as a red herring.

I think voting rights and the PA are so much more important than the vax ids.
I'm trying to avoid political labels, avoid personal attacks, focus on arguments.

[rod9301]

The things that are disconnected in your arguments mostly have to do with the poor's access to restaurants and bars. I don't really understand that.

Access to grocery stores for the poor is an issue, but that could be addressed by improving access to vax and associated ids. Again, there is legal groundwork for this.

But I think I'm done. I don't find any of your arguments convincing, just obsessive.

Access to grocery stores for the poor has been a problem for a long time.

No grocery stores in many areas, people shop at gas stations

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[Danno]

What state has social security number on its driver's license? Skidog says that's the case, but it sounds off to me.

[jono]

To borrow some words from the Big Lebowski:

WHAT IN GOD'S HOLY NAME ARE YOU BLATHERING ABOUT

I can't help wondering how different our cuntry would be if we used that format for voting. Just. Wow.