To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Dumbfuck... As soon as you start using facts and not politically motivated talking points I'm sure someone will be happy to discuss

1. Look when the delta variant was first discovered. If we had shut our borders we MIGHT have been able to stop it, but that's possibility is long since passed
2. Vax efficacy continues to trend downwards with almost every study.
3. Numerous studies are seeing infection rates between fully vaxed and unvaxed at relatively similar numbers
4. Delta is killing and causing severe cases in the fully vaxed. 22% mortality in this Isreali study. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34245907/. Lots of comorbidities similar to the general population in the fat ole USA

Did you read the article you linked? There isn’t a 22% percent mortality rate among the vaccinated. It’s 22% among vaccine breakthrough cases that require hospitalization. Most of those have comorbidities. This isn’t really that surprising and it’s the reason we’ve been told that getting vaccinated is more important than ever.

Your post is purposely misleading and filled with deliberate inaccuracies.


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[old goat]

Joe, contact tracing works when outbreaks are limited and resources are vast. Once the virus gets loose tracing these strings becomes impossible from a manpower standpoint.

It is also a bit naive to think there isn't a ton of work ongoing to come up with better therapies, Im personally associated with a couple of these efforts. But drugs for treatment are always going to be more expensive and have more risk associated with them than preventive measures.

All true. I would add that antiviral treatments are hard. Scientists have been working on them since the structure of viruses and how they work was discovered with little success. Antibiotics against bacterial largely target the metabolic processes of the bacteria, which are different that those of humans. The problem with viruses is that they don't have their own metabolic processes--they use those of the host, so a drug that targets them would target the host's healthy cells as well. So if you can't target a virus' metabolism you have to target its structure. And how to you do that? Antibodies. Vaccines.

The thing to understand about immunity and viruses is that it's like warfare. Numbers matter. The number of viral particles you're exposed to. How many antibodies and primed T cells you have or can make. The best defenses can be overcome by overwhelming numbers. And if the defenses are present but in limited numbers they can be overcome by moderate numbers. It's pretty simple--if there are more virus particles than there are antibody molecules to attach to them the viruses win. (OK it's not quite that simple; actually there are entire libraries dedicated to the subject.)

[californiagrown]

The problem with viruses is that they don't have their own metabolic processes--they use those of the host, so a drug that targets them would target the host's healthy cells as well. So if you can't target a virus' metabolism you have to target its structure. And how to you do that? Antibodies. Vaccines.

Sounds kinda similar to how we have to try and treat cancer with chemo. I guess that viruses move too fast and are too widespread in the body to be targeted with a chemo type treatment?

[XXX-er]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid...nada-1.6139379

"Canada isn't seeing the same rising levels of pediatric hospitalizations as the U.S., experts say"

a pretty good artical ^^ basicly its cuz of a higher rate of vax in canada

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...r100klast7days

apparently the south east USA is pretty bad

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Sounds kinda similar to how we have to try and treat cancer with chemo. I guess that viruses move too fast and are too widespread in the body to be targeted with a chemo type treatment?

mRNA vaccine tech was originally developed for cancer patients


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[Danno]

It may be a fine line between stupidity and intentionally misleading. I'd say that both sides need to thoughtfully consider that before posting or reporting. For those who love to troll with this stuff, the collective's appetite for the trolling behavior is diminishing, so don't come crying if you find yourself suspended or banned for repeatedly and intentionally posting inflammatory shit.

On the other hand, we don't really have a rule against stupidity or against watching Fox News, so just because someone doesn't "get it" doesn't automatically mean that person should be banned. So for those reporting posts, don't come crying if the person being an idiot isn't getting banned. Also, realize that even if they deserve banning, sometimes these discussions take time.

[ron johnson]

Please link an article to back up this statement. Because it sure sounds like you're talking out of your ass on this one. Every study that I have seen indicates that moderna and pfizer are much more effective than natural infection.

If you can't post an article to back you claim, it verifies that you are just making stuff up to fit your narrative.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/309762

[MultiVerse]

^ That article is based on the bad data you posted earlier.

[jono]

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/309762

Garbage story attempts to do math without having data: the data needed is how many of the previously infected have also been vaccinated (or not), both with and without a "breakthrough" case. Comparison without that is nonsense.

[jono]

It may be a fine line between stupidity and intentionally misleading. I'd say that both sides need to thoughtfully consider that before posting or reporting. For those who love to troll with this stuff, the collective's appetite for the trolling behavior is diminishing, so don't come crying if you find yourself suspended or banned for repeatedly and intentionally posting inflammatory shit.

On the other hand, we don't really have a rule against stupidity or against watching Fox News, so just because someone doesn't "get it" doesn't automatically mean that person should be banned. So for those reporting posts, don't come crying if the person being an idiot isn't getting banned. Also, realize that even if they deserve banning, sometimes these discussions take time.

Understandable. Also worth noting that of the few truly intentional misinformation posters here there are a few who really want to hone their skills so they can get closer to that fine line. See RJ.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

It may be a fine line between stupidity and intentionally misleading. I'd say that both sides need to thoughtfully consider that before posting or reporting. For those who love to troll with this stuff, the collective's appetite for the trolling behavior is diminishing, so don't come crying if you find yourself suspended or banned for repeatedly and intentionally posting inflammatory shit.

On the other hand, we don't really have a rule against stupidity or against watching Fox News, so just because someone doesn't "get it" doesn't automatically mean that person should be banned. So for those reporting posts, don't come crying if the person being an idiot isn't getting banned. Also, realize that even if they deserve banning, sometimes these discussions take time.

I understand this. I’m okay with Austin/MF and mtu type posters, I think they mean well but they just don’t get it. It’s Asspen, deebased, rj and their ilk that are obviously trolling and trying to spread misinformation and create divisions. That’s not okay given the seriousness of the topic.


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[funkendrenchman]

No big deal.

“In Dallas we have zero ICU beds left for children. That means if your child’s in a car wreck, if your child has a congenital heart defect or something and needs an ICU bed, or more likely if they have Covid and need an ICU bed, we don’t have one. Your child will wait for another child to die. Your child will just not get on the ventilator, your child will be CareFlighted to Temple or Oklahoma City or wherever we can find them a bed, but they won’t be getting one here unless one clears and that’s been true for 24 hours,” the judge said.

[JimmyCarter]

Yes, he's a troll in the ILC/DBT tradition. Jimmy Carter an up and coming hopeful for the title.

What color is the sky in your world?

[skaredshtles]

<snip> But drugs for treatment are always going to be more expensive and have more risk associated with them than preventive measures.

It's really too bad that scientists haven't developed a vaccine for this malady.

[skaredshtles]

I have a buddy who got covid last summer. He is unvaxxed. He isnt an antivaxer by anymeans, and kind of sheepishly doesnt offer up any real reason for not getting vaxed. His new wife on the other hand believes that the vaccine will make her infertile and could possibly make my buddy infertile and says things like "i dont trust a vaccine that changes your DNA like these new ones". Her dad is some kind of doctor and apparently gave her this advice. She got angry recently when my 8.5 month pregnant wife politely declined a dinner invitation because she doesnt want to be around unvaccinated people right now (i read the text conversation, it was polite). Buddy's wife said something along the lines of "i respect your opinion on the vaccine and its really disappointing you don't respect mine". SMH. Its a bummer, and im hoping she doesnt fully brainwash my buddy, but he is moving back to his old hometown to be closer to her family so im not holding out too much hope.

Dude's fucked. You should probably give him your regards and let him wander off into the maelstrom...

[Dexter Rutecki]

Why is none of this happening in Canada where Delta is @ 94% of cases?

Because he's a lying asshole.

Just so you know. In his brain he really believes he is quoting what he read. Worms.

Because he's a lying asshole.

Intentionally misleading post. 22% of those who were hospitalized eventually died. That's not an increase in mortality. If you're bad off enough to be hospitalized you have a strong chance of dying. I've said it before: you cannot be this innumerate, you can only be lying intentionally. STFU>FO

Because he's a lying asshole.

[Dexter Rutecki]

(OK it's not quite that simple; actually there are entire libraries dedicated to the subject.)

Good thing we have people like Dweeb who have spent time in those libraries and are up to date on all the most recent research.

[skaredshtles]

No big deal.

“In Dallas we have zero ICU beds left for children. That means if your child’s in a car wreck, if your child has a congenital heart defect or something and needs an ICU bed, or more likely if they have Covid and need an ICU bed, we don’t have one. Your child will wait for another child to die. Your child will just not get on the ventilator, your child will be CareFlighted to Temple or Oklahoma City or wherever we can find them a bed, but they won’t be getting one here unless one clears and that’s been true for 24 hours,” the judge said.

cRiSiS AcToRs tHaT ArE TrYiNg tO ScArE Us iNtO GiViNg uP OuR FrEeDuMbS!!

[dunfree]

No big deal.

“In Dallas we have zero ICU beds left for children. That means if your child’s in a car wreck, if your child has a congenital heart defect or something and needs an ICU bed, or more likely if they have Covid and need an ICU bed, we don’t have one. Your child will wait for another child to die. Your child will just not get on the ventilator, your child will be CareFlighted to Temple or Oklahoma City or wherever we can find them a bed, but they won’t be getting one here unless one clears and that’s been true for 24 hours,” the judge said.

not wearing masks was worth it. Freedumb!

[seano732]

cRiSiS AcToRs tHaT ArE TrYiNg tO ScArE Us iNtO GiViNg uP OuR FrEeDuMbS!!

Along those lines……This why we as a country are absolutely fucked:
https://twitter.com/jerrijamz/status...255106049?s=21

[skaredshtles]

Along those lines……This why we as a country are absolutely fucked:
https://twitter.com/jerrijamz/status...255106049?s=21

[XXX-er]

thats a deeply reaching edict in move than just the simple servants, its probably like a million people who must vax if they havent already and other companies & industries will follow suit,


they are coming for your freedoms eh ?



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fed...ions-1.6140131

Transport Minister Omar Alghabra announced today that the federal government will soon require that all public servants be vaccinated — a mandate that he said will also be implemented by Crown corporations and other federally regulated businesses in the coming weeks.

While Canada's vaccination rate is among the highest in the world — 81 per cent of all eligible Canadians have had at least one dose — Alghabra said the country "must do better."

"We need to reach as many Canadians as we possibly can," he said.

[Deebased]

Intentionally misleading post. 22% of those who were hospitalized eventually died. That's not an increase in mortality. If you're bad off enough to be hospitalized you have a strong chance of dying. I've said it before: you cannot be this innumerate, you can only be lying intentionally. STFU>FO

No increase in mortality was mentioned in my post. But your suppositions are welcome. Perhaps we should go back to your posts where I claimed we'd have annual booster shots and you said no fucking way.

The other aspect none of the studies I've read have bothered to address is asymptomatic rates for the fully vaxed.

[Deebased]

Did you read the article you linked? There isn’t a 22% percent mortality rate among the vaccinated. It’s 22% among vaccine breakthrough cases that require hospitalization. Most of those have comorbidities. This isn’t really that surprising and it’s the reason we’ve been told that getting vaccinated is more important than ever.

Your post is purposely misleading and filled with deliberate inaccuracies.


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The article linked is an example of fully vaxed deaths from C19 Delta (which disproves Dexter's fundamentally false statement) At no point did I state that delta has a mortality rate of 22%

[jono]

No increase in mortality was mentioned in my post. But your suppositions are welcome. Perhaps we should go back to your posts where I claimed we'd have annual booster shots and you said no fucking way.

The other aspect none of the studies I've read have bothered to address is asymptomatic rates for the fully vaxed.

"We" should definitely spend more time on non-existent fantasies like the posts you mentioned, yes. Please find those. I'm sure the search function works in your world, too, so that should be super easy for you. Post em up, I'll wait.