Ask the experts

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

The people that win any world or national level sporting event are super fit.

But if you go down to a regional level, plenty of guys winning enduro races are not particularly fit. At least compared to the guys winning regional XC races.

Yeah that's probably true. I definitely noticed that as a whole the XC people I raced against even in sport categories were way more fit than than many of the expert cat enduro guys at regional races.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

We can go back and forth all day....

The enduro races are catered to amateurs who pay entry fees. Not the top pros. At EWS that isn't the case so your point is not inaccurate.

Did you know that some pros even get paid to be at these amateur races? Like fully paid...travel, lodging, whores, you name it. Ah the good old days.

Last thing I'll say on the matter is that BME and CA enduro Expert and Pro classes are much closer to EWS than they are most regional enduros in my experience. Lots of people on free bikes and real teams racing Expert at both race series in my experience.

[t.odd]

personally I like the not ews format enduros, and I've done multiple ews' (master) in Whistler...I feel like they kind of jumped the shark into just multiple downhills and a lot more lift riding, and personally I always preferred the long, hard, "crankzilla" style events where you had moderate cutoffs, and making it to the end was a good accomplishment in and of itself. I did Trans-Provence in 2017 and that pretty much killed my interest in typical enduro racing. Pemberton had a blind race a couple years ago and that was awesome, but most other events just turn into people over training the courses for weeks ahead of time and to me that takes away from what I personally think these events should embody. Racing blind is awesome though, wish more events went that way, I'd probably get back into racing a lot more if they did.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I actually like the all pedal power enduros with no uplifts as well. I have never done a fully blind enduro but would really like to.

[joetron]

We had a local semi-underground enduro here a month ago. Stages weren’t announced until the morning-of at the meeting spot, and the first stage was a Le Mans mass start. The good stuff. Excellent racing.


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[toast2266]

We had a local semi-underground enduro here a month ago. Stages weren’t announced until the morning-of at the meeting spot, and the first stage was a Le Mans mass start. The good stuff. Excellent racing.


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That's how it should be. Sounds fun.

[XtrPickels]

Man, This thread moves fast.
I had some thoughts on my ride today.

1. I am not advocating that riders need to be sucking down gels all the time. It's ok to do a 2 hour ride without food. I do them constantly. This is not fasted / glycogen depleted training
2. True glycogen depleted training feels like the end of a 3-hour ride At The Beginning of your ride. If you try to do a hard effort, your legs feel soft. Your heart rate doesn't reach the normal high value.

[XtrPickels]

So Zwift has me at a 226 FTP. I did an FTP test earlier in the fall and it was maybe 220 and then after a race the game automatically upped my FTP. This is all probably meaningless because I have a ghetto whee speed based trainer that is just guessing at watts.

Heart rate zones I am guessing based on one of those online calculators (which I guess are vary vague?).

Like on my 19 mile Watopia route today with 2 sprint KOMs and two hill climb KOMs my average HR was 140 and average power only 166 (with a 605 max lol.....no way I ever actually put out 605 watts).

It's probably somewhat pointless to look at any of these numbers until I get a real trainer anyway.

Had a consult at local coach/cycling physio and was going to do VO2 max, get real FTP, HR zones etc etc......but Covid.

It's all relative, so it may likely be accurate until you get a different power measuring device.

If this is a representative FTP, then you ought to be focusing on riding most of your time at ~160watts.
I'm sure that sounds appalling. But, like I said, most people fall into the trap of riding harder because then it feels like they're doing something.
Twice a week you should be doing harder efforts. Maybe a Zwift race or repeats of 4x 5 to 8 minutes at ~270 watts. You know your harder efforts are at a good pace if they feel OK through halfway and then they really start to suck. If you're not worried that you can finish it, it probably isn't hard enough.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

It's all relative, so it may likely be accurate until you get a different power measuring device.

If this is a representative FTP, then you ought to be focusing on riding most of your time at ~160watts.
I'm sure that sounds appalling. But, like I said, most people fall into the trap of riding harder because then it feels like they're doing something.
Twice a week you should be doing harder efforts. Maybe a Zwift race or repeats of 4x 5 to 8 minutes at ~270 watts. You know your harder efforts are at a good pace if they feel OK through halfway and then they really start to suck. If you're not worried that you can finish it, it probably isn't hard enough.

Ok awesome. My average again today was actually 161 watts for the 40 miles. The physio/coach I wanted to work with before covid got bad again recommended I do pretty much no intervals/sprints at all until like a few weeks before race season starts. Basically I should only be focusing on base now. Was gonna do a weight training program as well at the gym with some of the other bike racing dudes, but that is out for now too. So going to have to figure that stuff at home now as well.

Should I just do rides where the entire time I am at 160w (minus short warm up and cool down) and not chase any KOMs (aka interval sprints)?

Very good info in your last several posts XP. Thank you.

[XtrPickels]

I thought your trainer did actually measure power, just that it doesn't adjust resistance? Also, 600w for a few seconds isn't that out of the question.


Since we're on the topic maybe we could clarify something about fat burning. My impression is that the harder you work, the more calories you burn. And the harder you work, the more that is coming from glycogen. But, fat is still always getting burned. Does the rate of fat consumption actually go down/stop at a certain point, or is it always happening regardless?

Yes. By FTP your fat oxidation is zero in a well-fed individual. If you are glycogen depleted this is not the case, but your FTP is also typically lower when glycogen depleted.
Systems:

Aerobic:
Base Intensity: The contribution from Fat is maximized. For some this is 50% of caloric expenditure. For most it's in the 20-30% range. For those with a poor aerobic system it is less than 20% contribution. The balance is carbohydrate burned aerobically.
Base Intensity to Threshold: Fat oxidation decreases pretty much linearly. Aerobic oxidation of Carbohydrate increases to take it's place. Anaerobic oxidation of Carbohydrate begins to kick-in as the aerobic system cannot keep up with demand. By threshold / FTP Fat oxidation is zero and for most people this happens just after they leave the base zone.
Threshold to VO2 max: Aerobic oxidation of carbohydrate continues to increase to it's max at VO2max. Anaerobic oxidation of carbs continues to increase.
Beyond VO2max: This is complicated and perhaps beyond this discussion.

[XtrPickels]

That’s awesome, XP.

I only know what works for me through several years of trial and error, so grain of salt here. I do most of my rides fasted, out of convenience as much as anything. I was working on getting fat adapted through diet and kinda stumbled into the realization that I didn’t need food every time I got on the bike and that I can go for a while at a low to moderate pace without food/carbs. To Pickle’s point, my goal has always been adaptation rather than outright performance, but I’m stronger as a result. If you pursue fasted riding, plan to take in some protein on anything more than a couple hours, eat as soon as you’re done riding, and make sure to make up those missed calories, preferably with high quality, whole foods (don’t limit calories). Hard efforts are possible fasted, but you’ll suck serious wind and they’re depleting so limit those and plan to pump some healthy carbs in when you’re done.

Trying to lose that last bit of vanity fat while training is a great way to sink yourself. Work on performance/adaptation or work on getting lean. IME, trying to do both is a recipe for burnout.

I don't think this is out of the ordinary. You've found what works for you and understand the limitations (and benefits) of your strategy.
I definitely concur with your last thought: Enduro's are not won on the uphill. I'd rather someone had a bit of extra fat and be "durable" than overly light and being metabolically fragile.

[simple]

If enduros were for fit people Adam Craig would win a lot more races. The best racers are crazy people with the skill to pump and not use the brakes. They learn they have to stay really fit to stay competitive and not hurt. Super quick processing skills to compute terrain adjustment. After 40 my brain couldn't process that fast. Or maybe it was all the substance abuse lol

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Ok awesome. My average again today was actually 161 watts for the 40 miles. The physio/coach I wanted to work with before covid got bad again recommended I do pretty much no intervals/sprints at all until like a few weeks before race season starts. Basically I should only be focusing on base now. Was gonna do a weight training program as well at the gym with some of the other bike racing dudes, but that is out for now too. So going to have to figure that stuff at home now as well.

Should I just do rides where the entire time I am at 160w (minus short warm up and cool down) and not chase any KOMs (aka interval sprints)?

Very good info in your last several posts XP. Thank you.

If you want to nerd out on a podcast about a lot of this these are great: https://fascatcoaching.com/category/fascat-podcasts/

The previous two episodes are going to answer a lot of your questions (from their POV on training at least)

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

^^^ sweet thanks

[bagtagley]

Man, This thread moves fast.
I had some thoughts on my ride today.

1. I am not advocating that riders need to be sucking down gels all the time. It's ok to do a 2 hour ride without food. I do them constantly. This is not fasted / glycogen depleted training
2. True glycogen depleted training feels like the end of a 3-hour ride At The Beginning of your ride. If you try to do a hard effort, your legs feel soft. Your heart rate doesn't reach the normal high value.

Do you consider riding on no caloric intake that day (since waking up) fasted or are you working with a longer/stricter window?

That’s what I’m doing along with sporadic IF, but I’m not taking it further than that and definitely not riding in a glycogen depleted state.

[HankScorpio]

I bought a PNW Pine external dropper post for my fat bike, installed it like every other dropper post and it initially returned very slowly. I fucked with the cable tension, checked the seat past collar torque and it worked better, not great, but better. I took for it a ride and it got worse to the point where it would only come back up a couple inches. I email PNW and get a new one in about a week - awesome customer service.

I install the new one and its doing the same damn thing. Starts okay but gets shittier as I ride it more. Kind of at a loss here - cable seems to moving fine, I lubed the seal to help it slide better, ferrules are seated, lever works okay. I am using interrupted housing because of cable stops that are on the frame. Would using full length housing make a difference? That's the only thing I can think of.

Bugs the hell out of me because I also have a PNW Bachelor and its been perfect for 2k+ miles.

I'm about to return it unless the collective has an idea for a fix.

[XtrPickels]

Do you consider riding on no caloric intake that day (since waking up) fasted or are you working with a longer/stricter window?

That’s what I’m doing along with sporadic IF, but I’m not taking it further than that and definitely not riding in a glycogen depleted state.

I'd put this in the same category as riding in the morning after an over-night fast. Your liver will be low in glycogen, but your muscles will likely not be. (This very much depends on the day prior's exercise and eating, though. E.g. if you chronically eat a low-carb diet, then you'll be glycogen depleted at the muscular level OR if you did a depleting ride and haven't eaten since, you'll be glycogen depleted).

This is good for the "Toughing it out" improvement, but not necessarily the physiological improvement in the muscle because the muscle is likely still well fueled.

[Sandbox]

Damn.... some great info over the
Last several pages in regard to training. Thanks!


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[g_man80]

I need a nylon compression ball for the bleed port on a RS Deluxe. Does anyone know if the Monarch uses the same size? The one from my Deluxe measures about 1/8". All the online retailers say "for Monarch" and don't list a size or compatibility with the Deluxe.

[Iowagriz]

Anyone use one of these wall mounts? I'm looking for something to mount the tandem to the wall. Could use two sets of these. Thinking it would keep it out of the way, yet easy to get down. Currently have one of the rope pulley systems for the ceiling. But it still hangs low and can be a pain to get down.

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[jm2e]

Tandem. I guess that rules out a wall or ceiling hook for the front wheel!


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[Flounder]

I saw those recently and am considering them. My worry is they take up less wall height but stick out more from the wall. Makes it tight to the car in the garage. Should be all right with the road bikes but mtb bars keep getting wider.

Report back if you try them.

Anyone use one of these wall mounts? I'm looking for something to mount the tandem to the wall. Could use two sets of these. Thinking it would keep it out of the way, yet easy to get down. Currently have one of the rope pulley systems for the ceiling. But it still hangs low and can be a pain to get down.

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[Iowagriz]

Tandem. I guess that rules out a wall or ceiling hook for the front wheel!


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Tandem is barely under 9' long, ceiling is 9'. I thought about a hook or wheel holder style. I need to see how hard it would be to stand on rear wheel and hang. I think that if I voile strap the front wheel to the downtube, it would stay steady while I use the stoker handlebar to maneuver.

[nickwm21]

What’s wrong with the standard horizontal wall hanging hooks? Assuming you have a traditional top tube on the tandem.


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[alpinevibes]

Tandem is barely under 9' long, ceiling is 9'. I thought about a hook or wheel holder style. I need to see how hard it would be to stand on rear wheel and hang. I think that if I voile strap the front wheel to the downtube, it would stay steady while I use the stoker handlebar to maneuver.

You could try something like this if you were concerned about the wall situation. Slightly janky looking, but I've used them and they work pretty well - https://www.amazon.com/Cyclingdeal-B...dp/B00811N5DE/

Otherwise, maybe go vertical with a wheel holder and something up on the all to stabilize the front bars - https://www.amazon.com/Bike-Nook-Ins.../dp/B06XXSHGWR - there's a customer photo of it holding a tandem