The Official Salomon S/Lab SHIFT MNC Thread -AMA

[reckless toboggan]

Maybe overly obvious but given that (which I agree complrwtely), wouldn’t a reverse camber ski be the ideal match?

Also so why does the scenario you describe not happen again with pivots?

i feel like, and I’m just speculating here, but could look come out with a touring pivot? And I don’t mean cast, and I don’t mean that other euro company that is releasing a binding that’s heavier than frAme binding

A reverse camber ski still flexes and rebounds. I just call it decambering/re-cambering/rebounding so people can picture it. A reverse ski still does all of those things, it's just that its final resting shape when all of the flexing cycles have finished is reverse cambered. If you push into a reverse ski, then quickly release it, it will rebound back past its resting shape, just as a traditionally cambered ski will rebound back past its resting shape.

The no-release release doesn't really happen with pivots because pivots arc upward on a free hinge (ie. they don't slide backward along the ski) for forward pressure {or more accurately to keep the distance between the binding toe and heel constant about a fixed length boot sole) when the ski is flexed. Pivots don't rely on spring pressure for forward pressure. Because a pivot heel piece is on a free floating, very low friction hinge that doesn't have a recoil associated with a change in direction (as a spring does), the binding heel piece can freely move and change direction with the boot regardless of what the ski is doing. This is why pivots are relatively insensitive to forward pressure setting.

Think of pivots in the same way you think if a tele binding.

The distance between the toe and heel stays the same because the binding heel can arc upward with the boot sole heel as the ski flexes deeply.

With Salomon's (and any other binding on a track that uses a forward pressure spring), for the distance between the toe and heel piece to stay the same (in order to accomodate the fixed length of the boot sole) when the ski is flexed deeply, the binding heel must slide backward along the track fixed to the ski surface and push into the forward pressure spring. When the ski flexes back, if the spring can't keep up, there is a moment where the binding heel is still backward on the track, but the rest of the system has rebounded, and now there's nothing holding your boot heel in the binding. This is why bindings with a heel track are relatively more sensitive to forward pressure setting.

i feel like, and I’m just speculating here, but could look come out with a touring pivot? And I don’t mean cast, and I don’t mean that other euro company that is releasing a binding that’s heavier than frAme binding

That's pretty much exactly what the BAM Pindung is; it's a look pivot heel with a Salomon Shift toe (although obviously accomplishing the same thing as the Shift toe but in a slightly different way, and with what looks like a lot more metal rather than carbonthermoplastic). Sure. Look should probably buy BAM, or at least the Pindung, drop the weight and giver. The Pindung is basically the RedShift I've been wanting Salomon to release...but with a pivot heel which is even better IMHO.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Do you not know what “snow snake” means?

[reckless toboggan]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_snake
Snow snake is a Native American winter sport traditionally played by many tribes in the northern Midwest, including the Ojibwe, Sioux, Wyandotte, Oneida and other Iroquois people.


https://www.michigan.org/property/snow-snake
Snow Snake offers fun in ALL seasons! Winter offers 12 trails with a 210 feet vertical drop, one of the nicest beginner hills in the state, and two terrain parks.


https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...m=snow%20snake
the nemisis of skiers and boarders the world over. Snowsnakes tend to like to warm them shelves on steep snow-covered slopes. Their white color makes them impossible to see while skiing or boarding. Often the cause for unxplained wipe outs.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snow%20snake
Definition of snow snake: an implement in the form of a staff several feet long hurled along ice or snowy ground in a North American Indian game

[Rob Stokes]

Add me to the list of shift prereleasing. Has happened to me both landing slightly forward on cliff landings and hitting buried moguls at high speed. I have gradually increased the heal din so this has stopped happening.

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That sounds like a normal release, not pre release?

You adjusted the DIN up slightly to where you should be and the problem stopped.




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[reckless toboggan]

Add me to the list of shift prereleasing. Has happened to me both landing slightly forward on cliff landings and hitting buried moguls at high speed. I have gradually increased the heal din so this has stopped happening. Heels are at 12 now and toes at 11.
Ive increased the forward pressure too. Is there a consensus yet on the best setting for fwd pressure?

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That sounds like a normal release, not pre release?

You adjusted the DIN up slightly to where you should be and the problem stopped.




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Agreed. Forward on cliff landings and smashing into moguls are normal release modes.

[JRainey]

Yeah, this doesn't seem so complicated to me. I skied for years in the park and as a little huck monkey with Salomon bindings. I had to have the heel on 12 or bad things would happen on compressions or switch landings. Then I switched to pivots and could run the heel on 10 with no issues. Then got tyrolias, tried those on 10, but had to go on 11.

Every binding has a different threshold for getting buck wild. Maybe the shift is even more sensitive that the STH, I'll know when I put some time on 12, but I think it might be fine.

The same things is a problem for tech bindings. What could I use on a plum heel vs radical vs kingpin vs atk? They were all different. I had to figure that out through crashes.

I'm not excusing any binding company, I just see it as an imperfect landscape.

Might be fun to just use a pivot heel with a shift toe. I can paint it RED.

[TahoeJ]

Here's a counter point... as Josh D dry docks and the shifts still stay on: https://www.instagram.com/p/BvbzjgNld_9/

I seriously doubt 90% of the issues are user error, however. I still think they may pre-release more on certain boots than others, perhaps based on the thickness of the soles.

[macon]

Here's a counter point... as Josh D dry docks and the shifts still stay on: https://www.instagram.com/p/BvbzjgNld_9/

I seriously doubt 90% of the issues are user error, however. I still think they may pre-release more on certain boots than others, perhaps based on the thickness of the soles.

You really doubt that 90% of the issues are user error? IME, most problems people experience with any product are user error... why would this be any different? PEBCAK.

Personal anecdote: I personally know 5 people with these bindings (including myself). Only 1 of those 5 have had prerelease issues and it's because it was improperly adjusted by a shop - user error. I personally haven't had any issues. DIN 9.5 behaves just like it does on my pivots, I can't tell a difference personally.

[dcpnz]

I don’t really understand how so many of you claim to be blowing out of these things so easily, needing to crank DIN and forward pressure and this issue not showing up on the test bench .

Anecdotally for a first year binding I’ve seen a ton of these on the hill this year - if problem was widespread i think we’d hear more from shops who sold these things for full retail.

Also anecdotally i’ve had no issues with mine yet although its early days (only about 15 days mix of resort and touring) - normal din setting, 165lbs, freetour w/wtr soles

I have however seen a local salomon sponsored athlete winding up the afd at a resort tool bench.
My completely unvalidated theory is that perhaps the afd issues are more pronounced with rubber touring soles than with din/wtr/gripwalk soles.

[Cdubmpdx]

I don’t really understand how so many of you claim to be blowing out of these things so easily, needing to crank DIN and forward pressure and this issue not showing up on the test bench .

Anecdotally for a first year binding I’ve seen a ton of these on the hill this year - if problem was widespread i think we’d hear more from shops who sold these things for full retail.

Also anecdotally i’ve had no issues with mine yet although its early days (only about 15 days mix of resort and touring) - normal din setting, 165lbs, freetour w/wtr soles

I have however seen a local salomon sponsored athlete winding up the afd at a resort tool bench.
My completely unvalidated theory is that perhaps the afd issues are more pronounced with rubber touring soles than with din/wtr/gripwalk soles.

I have the same boots as you, Freetour with WTR soles and I was having issues with my AFD dropping for the first few times out until I went with Cody's method, which I'm not sure is safe, I haven't come out of them to verify proper release. The AFD is a problem with the step mechanism, if you are on the edge it will slide off/down with repeated pressure. But like you I have also not had any pre release issues, even when my AFD was low.

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[TahoeJ]

You really doubt that 90% of the issues are user error? IME, most problems people experience with any product are user error... why would this be any different? PEBCAK.

Personal anecdote: I personally know 5 people with these bindings (including myself). Only 1 of those 5 have had prerelease issues and it's because it was improperly adjusted by a shop - user error. I personally haven't had any issues. DIN 9.5 behaves just like it does on my pivots, I can't tell a difference personally.

I have shifts on 2 setups and they've been fantastic. Last weekend I went raging as hard as I could straight-lining down chop and bumps and still they wouldn't release, so for me they've been bomber. But in general the skiers on this forum tend to be savvy enough and there are more than just a few stories of people walking out of them.

[macon]

I have shifts on 2 setups and they've been fantastic. Last weekend I went raging as hard as I could straight-lining down chop and bumps and still they wouldn't release, so for me they've been bomber. But in general the skiers on this forum tend to be savvy enough and there are more than just a few stories of people walking out of them.

My experience has been the same as yours.

While I agree most people on this forum are savvy, I am confident this is mostly user error.

[el hefe]

I have not had any pre release issues, only one release and I am glad they did while face planting in deep snow.

Only issues for me have been the afd which was easily fixed and then recently coming out while locked in tour mode on steep crusty snow.

[tomjensen]

Seems like the could be issues with consistency in manufacturing. It would be interesting to get some precise measurements on where people with and without pre-release issues have set their forward pressure and maybe AFD height. I can't measure mine because they are in for warranty but it's easy to measure how far past flush the FP indicator is with a digital caliper or even a ruler in 64ths or half mm. I tried a variety of settings and kept walking out.

[macon]

Seems like the could be issues with consistency in manufacturing. It would be interesting to get some precise measurements on where people with and without pre-release issues have set their forward pressure and maybe AFD height. I can't measure mine because they are in for warranty but it's easy to measure how far past flush the FP indicator is with a digital caliper or even a ruler in 64ths or half mm. I tried a variety of settings and kept walking out.

The FP indicator should be inline with the arrows. The metal threaded bracket inside the black slot should be flush, if not just slightly inside. I don't know if that's what you're trying to describe, but that's how mine is set up and it's fine.

Bottom of page 25 here: https://issuu.com/salomonnz/docs/sal...wtr2019_300dpi

[tomjensen]

[QUOTE=macon;5632977]The FP indicator shouldn't be flush with the outer bracket, the indicator should be inline with the arrows. The metal threaded bracket inside the black slot should be flush, if not just slightly inside. I don't know if that's what you intended to say, but that's how mine is set up and it's fine.

No I understand that, and I've seen how it's displayed in the technical manual. I've tried the way its displayed there in green and cranked farther forward and pre-released both ways. If the problem really is user error, that seems like the easiest place to go wrong

[tomjensen]

So you're are saying its more like 1 rather than 2? That kind of makes sense, because there are markers/arrows further in from the ledge.

Attachment 269367

This is what I mean. some people are cranking the FP farther in that in pic 2. I'm wondering what distance past flush people are having success with. Flush (like in pic 2) definitely doesn't work with my binding

[Core Shot]

havent had a chance to review my binding yet as I’m in the hospital but I suspect heel pre release. I haven’t had an issue yet and felt secure otherwise. First release yet. High speed groomer, threw on the brakes and the ski popped off and I slid on it for 75m. 3” x 3” bonus hole on my back side. Luckily, I bled out the right hole.

Attachment 274538

Fack
Haven’t followed this thread for a while.

Heel releases. Forward pressure questions. Increase heel din.
And yet this had 3 years of pro hucking.
Pros must be running max din?

[macon]

This is what I mean. some people are cranking the FP farther in that in pic 2. I'm wondering what distance past flush people are having success with. Flush (like in pic 2) definitely doesn't work with my binding

Yeah this is the same pic in the manual. The green pic 2, flush, is what mine looks like. Freetour WTR boots. No issues.

Sounds like you might legitimately have a faulty binding.

Fack
Haven’t followed this thread for a while.

Heel releases. Forward pressure questions. Increase heel din.
And yet this had 3 years of pro hucking.
Pros must be running max din?

Cody says he's running DIN 13. At his height and weight that says plenty.

[Core Shot]

Good elastic bindings like look turntable, can run low.

I have had some crap bindings over the years where plus 2 din on the heels was standard operating procedure and caused no injury.
Increasing toe din is more sketchy.

[margotron]

Good elastic bindings like look turntable, can run low.

I have had some crap bindings over the years where plus 2 din on the heels was standard operating procedure and caused no injury.
Increasing toe din is more sketchy.

So (thanks reckless) the BAM Pindung weighs 1300g per ski. Way too heavy. But lighten everything up?

[kid-kapow]

LeeLau posted a feirly good guide on Shift set up a little while back - linked below - that is way easier to understand than the technical drawings depicted above.


Apparently the correct way to line things up in the rear. I have done it this way, and zero issues thus far on my end.

Full piece:
https://www.newschoolers.com/news/re...n-Atomic-Shift

[JRainey]

LeeLau posted a feirly good guide on Shift set up a little while back - linked below - that is way easier to understand than the technical drawings depicted above.


Apparently the correct way to line things up in the rear. I have done it this way, and zero issues thus far on my end.

Full piece:
https://www.newschoolers.com/news/re...n-Atomic-Shift

That is way too far in. As per the manual, and what others have recommended.

Here's mine slighty passed flush. I have since gone back to flush (using a straightedge across the plastic bridge to confirm flush contact). Then the arrow is right in the middle of the raised rectangle. I imagine anything within that rectangle is within spec.

[kid-kapow]

First of all - I find it very strange that Solly/Atomic hasn't issued some new directions that cannot be mistaken. Aka high res imagery together with a written text. I mean, incorrect setup can affect how the bindings perform, and as such, you would think that clear and concise guidance would be the cheapest and easiest insurance policy for minimizing shitty reviews (and prevent injuries, equipment being damaged and so one etc that tend to get repeated on forums and in social media).

Secondly - that could very well be my friend, though the technical drawings being less than clear is kinda what is causing this issue. Sorry for restarting this debate yet again...


When looking at the drawing above, comparing how the different Solly binders are meant to work (wrt forward pressure as depicted on pages 24-25) and taking into account both what you state and how Wildsnow depicts it (depicted below), your solution makes sense.

Aka having the back end of the metal align with the back end of the plastic part, and the arrows on top of the plastic part lining up with the back end of the rectangle on the metal bit - or that the two triangles being within the rectangle equals being within spec. That is how WildSnow has depicted it too, and gives both some margin for error.

Aka what you state much more succinctly in your post.


However, Lee's input that the two triangles on the plastic bit line up with the rear of the metal part does also make some sense. The difference is pretty tiny - that is just the distance between the rectangle and the end of the metal bit, so not massive.

So which is correct?

I guess it would be beneficial if the person who designed the rear could clear this up once and for all. (my apologies if he/she already did this)

Paging Solly/Atomic/Amer!

[macon]

You're making it more complicated than it actually is, it's not that confusing.

The arrows are supposed to align with a little rectangular indicator nub on the threaded metal piece (as seen in JRainey's pic). That little nub goes between the arrows. As long as the arrows are within the area of that indicator/nub, then it's good. The end of the threaded metal piece is supposed to be more or less flush with the end of the black piece.

JRainey and Wildsnow have it set up correctly. Yours is definitely not correct, as is explicitly said in the manual