2019 4frnt Renegade Changes?

[robnow]

Do we know if the Hoji and Raven are getting these same thin base & edges? I would assume so.

[Supermoon]

Do we know if the Hoji and Raven are getting these same thin base & edges? I would assume so.

Those are still built at Elan I believe so, a different factory.

Edit: the HOJI at least. Raven is probably built in Can now.

[altacoup]

So spend 50$ to mount. Ski them a couple times , then pay yo ship them back get a different pair pay another 50$ to mount. And maybe have a pair you like by spring.

Sounds like they are going to stiffen them up. Keeping the same thinner base and edge, but working on the core.
The Hoji is now stiffer then the renegade!

I just won't buy them. I've got 2 unmounted og rens in the closet. When I heard about the change I bought 2 backups.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[altacoup]

For those that have ski’d the Rens previously, would anyone welcome a 15% softer flex?

No. Why mess with perfection. They might float a little more. But the best thing about the Ren that totally sets it apart is that it's like a light Saber through pow.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Self Jupiter]

Anyone having the issue with their Rens getting ‘flat’ anymore? My 2015 isn’t, this gen, pretty sure last layup pre vibevail and thus pre-lightening:

[reckless toboggan]

So spend 50$ to mount. Ski them a couple times , then pay yo ship them back get a different pair pay another 50$ to mount.

What is this "paying to mount" you speak of? ... I've never heard of it.

#mountyourownfuckingskis


But I get your point, and you're right. I agree and also think this is a fuckup on 4frnt's part. They should be more transparent and provide more info about it. Glad they didn't pull some shady shit and send it out without telling anyone. And it's good they have the return policy that they do.

I used to be a hudge fan of 4frnt. 4frnt is all I own (8 pairs currently in my quiver) with the exception of a pair of Movement Goliaths (very similar to an EHP actually, but a little more turny/carvy for groomed GS/superG funtimes) and a pair of Voile UltraVector BC (for a randotouring setup).

That's why when I find a ski I like, I hoard and get backups.

Mounted these last winter, last of my new 193s, but also have 2 x 186 ehp's and 2x 186 Renegades.




The ski industry changes shit just to change it. When you find a ski you like...Hoard them.

[reckless toboggan]

My thoughts since I woke up to early this morning

Hoji is a designer now and not a manufacturer (not overseeing process and QC) - previous builds in white room then elan
Hoji is not on social media so we will not hear form him (maybe someone else at 4frnt will step up - hint hint)

This was a last second change in renegade production or it would have been brought up way sooner
Therefore either 4frnt screwed up on order or Utopie screwed up product manufacturing
Either way its unfortunate since 191 Renegade seemed like a great balance between 186 tree killer and 196 AK killer

Bottom line, if there is anything I've learned being on TGR this many years is
"Transparency goes along way"
Yah you may get hammered for building a bad product that people waited a long time to ski
but at least you wont get blacklisted for trying to pawn off a bad product you knew had problems

The email from 4Frnt did not seem like full disclosure
A last minute change we did not know about vs oh crap we just QC'd first pairs and Houston we have a problem!

I agree with all of this.

But I'm glad that 4frnt has the return policy they do.

Eric is on Instagram. ... @hojboss ... Far be it for me to tell Eric what to do, but I think thehojimonster would have been a primo insta name.

If it was Praxis, ON3P, Lithic, Cody/Alka, Moment, etc. they likely would have come on here already to explain what was up. 4frnt used to do that too, back in the day.

But this is the new 4frnt under new management (JLev, JSkis, Line). Let that guide your future purchases.

I really hope they turn it around, but I'm not holding my breath, as I explained in the "Why is 4frnt Blowing It?" thread last year.

[2FUNKY]

#mountyourownfuckingskis

[Self Jupiter]

What is this "paying to mount" you speak of? ... I've never heard of it.

#mountyourownfuckingskis


But I get your point, and you're right. I agree and also think this is a fuckup on 4frnt's part. They should be more transparent and provide more info about it. Glad they didn't pull some shady shit and send it out without telling anyone. And it's good they have the return policy that they do.

I used to be a hudge fan of 4frnt. 4frnt is all I own (8 pairs currently in my quiver) with the exception of a pair of Movement Goliaths (very similar to an EHP actually, but a little more turny/carvy for groomed GS/superG funtimes) and a pair of Voile UltraVector BC (for a randotouring setup).

That's why when I find a ski I like, I hoard and get backups.

Mounted these last winter, last of my new 193s, but also have 2 x 186 ehp's and 2x 186 Renegades.




The ski industry changes shit just to change it. When you find a ski you like...Hoard them.

Same. The EHP and the designs that followed are and seem to forever be the foundation of my quiver and ‘ski style.’ I’ve owned both length EHPs (kept 186 and sold 193 cuz east coast), 196 Rens, both 84 and 94 length Devs and now 187 Hojis. 181 Switchblades are cooked. Have access to Cody/Gauchos and YLEs. Into all of them.

[reckless toboggan]

Same. The EHP and the designs that followed are and seem to forever be the foundation of my quiver and ‘ski style.’ I’ve owned both length EHPs (kept 186 and sold 193 cuz east coast), 196 Rens, both 84 and 94 length Devs and now 187 Hojis. 181 Switchblades are cooked. Have access to Cody/Gauchos and YLEs. Into all of them.

Yup. Also have 184 Devs and 189 Turbos for messing around the mountain.

There are moments, sometimes years, where a company just gets it. They're ahead of the game. They do it for the love and for skiers. 4frnt was such a company for almost a decade. Wasn't profitable, but damn, they just got it. I'm so glad and feel fortunate to have participated and raved about them during that era. It's a different company now, under new management and has a different direction. Hope it works out for them, but their current direction isn't aligned with what I want in skis or in a ski company. Meanwhile, I'll ski my quiver of absolute gems, and I'll be at the forefront of looking for the next 4frnt.

[powderslave]

What is this "paying to mount" you speak of? ... I've never heard of it.

#mountyourownfuckingskis


But I get your point, and you're right. I agree and also think this is a fuckup on 4frnt's part. They should be more transparent and provide more info about it. Glad they didn't pull some shady shit and send it out without telling anyone. And it's good they have the return policy that they do.

I used to be a hudge fan of 4frnt. 4frnt is all I own (8 pairs currently in my quiver) with the exception of a pair of Movement Goliaths (very similar to an EHP actually, but a little more turny/carvy for groomed GS/superG funtimes) and a pair of Voile UltraVector BC (for a randotouring setup).

That's why when I find a ski I like, I hoard and get backups.

Mounted these last winter, last of my new 193s, but also have 2 x 186 ehp's and 2x 186 Renegades.




The ski industry changes shit just to change it. When you find a ski you like...Hoard them.

I’ve never mounted skis before, I have heard of people using paper jigs. But knowing me I’d fuck it up.

I find it very odd that they would pull this last minute. Was this change intended. Are these the version Hoji skis on. Maybe they didn’t think the lighter base and edge would reflect on the stiffness. Not giving answers and trying to wash this over is pathetic. Obvious they know they screwed up, because they already decided to stiffen the ski before any feed back from the customers.

[Best Mexican Skier from Da South]

What they need to do is put those defective ski’s for sale on the Sterbenz’s Stash page, and deliver on the stiffer Renegades.

[reckless toboggan]

I’ve never mounted skis before, I have heard of people using paper jigs. But knowing me I’d fuck it up.

It's not rocket dentistry. Take your time, have a couple of beers, practice a couple of times on a 2x4, and you'll see how easy it actually is.

I find it very odd that they would pull this last minute. Was this change intended. Are these the version Hoji skis on. Maybe they didn’t think the lighter base and edge would reflect on the stiffness. Not giving answers and trying to wash this over is pathetic. Obvious they know they screwed up, because they already decided to stiffen the ski before any feed back from the customers.

100% agree.

What they need to do is put those defective ski’s for sale on the Sterbenz’s Stash page, and deliver on the stiffer Renegades.

100% agree.


.
.
.


Hopefully JLev can turn this around, and keep making (or reintroduce/reissue) the ski's we all loved.

But he's got his own program, and it's his company, so I'm not holding my breath.

[reckless toboggan]

Given what we've heard here, I think this new Renegade will be very popular with, and accessable to, the intermediate/advanced skiier, blue to black runs, who wants an all mountain ski that will ski meadow skippy powder and tight trees at lower speeds. It'll make them feel like a rockstar.

From what I can gather from the numbers, this new Ren will ski somewhere between the old K2 ObSethed and the OG K2 Hellbent, but with a bigger turning radius than those enabling looser slarvey washed out turns when compared to the ObSethed and Hellbent (just as reference because someone was talking about the ski review site liking K2 so much) ........... If it's really good, it might even ski like an Elan Boomerang with a bigger radius. Not such a bad idea. In fact, if it does ski like an Elan Boomerang with a bigger radius, I'll probably buy a pair (although according to the flex test, the Boomerang 45555 is stiffer than this new Ren 44434). Those are all really great, fun, and very popular skis for 90% of the skiers out there, but IMHO that's not the Renegade. Not the spirit of the Renegade.

But the bottom Line is, it's not up to me or you. It's not my decision. It's JLevs company and Eric's ski so they can do whatever the fuck they want. Eric is the OG Renegade, he's earned the right to do or design whatever he wants.

I'd be very happy if they both prove me wrong on all accounts.

[powderslave]

Given what we've heard here, I think this new Renegade will be very popular with the intermediate/advanced skiier, blue to black runs, who wants an all mountain ski that will ski meadow skippy powder and tight trees at lower speeds. I hope they prove me wrong.

The question for me is: how hard and far could an aggressive (:fmicon) x-racer/coach who loved the ehp and old rens push this ski?

From what I can gather from the numbers, this new Ren will ski somewhere between the old K2 ObSethed and the OG K2 Hellbent, but with a bigger turning radius than those enabling looser slarvey washed out turns when compared to the ObSethed and Hellbent. If it's really good, it might even ski like a fatter Elan Boomerang. Not such a bad idea. Thats a really great, fun, and very popular ski for 90% of the skiers out there, but IMHO that's not the Renegade. Not the spirit of the Renegade.

But the bottom Line is, it's not up to me or you. It's not my decision. It's JLevs company and Eric's ski so they can do whatever the fuck they want.

Again, I'd be very happy if they prove me wrong.

But if this was a last minute decision, maybe these skis as they are were not even tested on snow yet. Only 4frnt knows. And trying to get answers from them is slow.
I see there are more pairs of the 184 Cm on The website.
Is that people returning them.

[Self Jupiter]

As much as I love me some good sciendentistrical discussion, I am looking forward to hearing from the powers that be at 4frnt.

[reckless toboggan]

As much as I love me some good sciendentistrical discussion, I am looking forward to hearing from the powers that be at 4frnt.

Yup.

[Hughwindlip]

Reading this thread was like having your grandpa explain santa claus is not real for a long drawn out 30 minutes, and then he has to explain how the presents end up under you tree..

Luckily I stocked up on Pilsner hojis, white red hojis, and green black 16? Ren's.

I will be at the free ride camp at GAH with HOJI in a couple weeks and ask him about it for you all ...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using TGR Forums mobile app

[reckless toboggan]

... santa claus is not real ...

What?!?

You take that back!

[emoji24]


LEAVE SANTA ALONE!

[JLev]

Sorry it took us a while to answer, insanely busy black fri - Christmas.

WHAT HAPPENED:
Hoji wanted to re-design the ski shape, and slightly adjust the flex for his Renegade this year. Throughout winter we sent him prototoypes and built the final variations and tested them at Mount Hood this summer (see story here). These are being built at the Utopie factory located in Rimouski Quebec. Same place that's built thousands of J skis, Rome snowboards and many other ski and snowboard brands so very reliable and consistent. The results of the final Mount Hood test were extremely positive from Matt Sterbenz, Hoji, Thayne, and the rest of us at Hood. Everyone agreed there was a huge improvement in ski finish, and overall feel. Eric choose the final flex and we all agreed it was best, which also happened to be slightly softer than years past, sorry I don't have exact % but it was slightly different and definitely a better ski and honestly Hoji had the final say. After the test, an idea came to the surface that if we changed to a standard base and edge thickness (previously extra thick) we could reduce weight. Knowing the thinner edge and base is actually industry standard in this category of skis, Matt Sterbenz, Eric and I all thought it was a smart decision to reduce and gave the green light to the factory. Being it was already July, we were in a bit of a rush to get these built and I overlooked the effect a different edge thickness and based thickness has on a ski's flex. It was completely my fault for not considering this, I have enough experience where I should have immediately requested another set of samples to confirm before production.

Fast forward to today, what's built is built and there is no time to build more with a different flex for this winter season. We will instead spend this winter adjusting the flex for Eric to test and confirm. We will do this by simply adjusting only the thickness of the core profile. This is always the simplest way to adjust only the flex pattern and has very little effect on the weight or feel. 0.5mm wood core thickness can make a huge difference in flex and no noticeable effect on weight or feel. For next season we will bring the flex back to what was intended with Hoji's blessing and triple check flex prior to production.

HOW THE SKIS WILL PERFORM:
It's a softer overall flex than intended by approximately 15%. Wether you will love it, or hate it, can only be determined by riding it... just like any other ski. Remember, everything is relative and perception is 100% based on each person's ability and past experience and current skis. With many skiers never trying this ski with a different flex, it's impossibly for them to truly know how it will effect performance in what way, let alone how it feel for other skiers. Although to date on this forum we've all seen very strong opinions, they've all been based only on hearsay and speculation. There's only one way to know how a ski rides... and that is to ski it yourself.

IF YOU ALREADY PURCHASED THEM:
At this point they are sold out and we've already informed all of our customers by email as soon as we noticed the different flex. With all of our 4FRNT products we offer a 100% Money Back Guarantee. If for any reason after a few days of riding any of our skis you don't feel it's right for you. You can return them for a full refund or swap them out for a different size or model.

Thanks again to everyone here for caring so much about our brand and products. It's truly inspiring for all of us working so hard to do the right thing to hear the passion you have 4FRNT's place in skiing. We will continue to do everything possible to come through for you. Please keep sharing your suggestions and perspectives! Contact us anytime live chat at 4frnt.com, text or call us (801) 975-9500 with thoughts, questions or to just talk about skiing. Again my personal email is jason@4frnt.com hit me up anytime to remind me to get my ass on here to talk. THANKS!

[MHSP1497]

Sorry it took us a while to answer, insanely busy black fri - Christmas.

WHAT HAPPENED:
Hoji wanted to re-design the ski shape, and slightly adjust the flex for his Renegade this year. Throughout winter we sent him prototoypes and built the final variations and tested them at Mount Hood this summer (see story here). These are being built at the Utopie factory located in Rimouski Quebec. Same place that's built thousands of J skis, Rome snowboards and many other ski and snowboard brands so very reliable and consistent. The results of the final Mount Hood test were extremely positive from Matt Sterbenz, Hoji, Thayne, and the rest of us at Hood. Everyone agreed there was a huge improvement in ski finish, and overall feel. Eric choose the final flex and we all agreed it was best, which also happened to be slightly softer than years past, sorry I don't have exact % but it was slightly different and definitely a better ski and honestly Hoji had the final say. After the test, an idea came to the surface that if we changed to a standard base and edge thickness (previously extra thick) we could reduce weight. Knowing the thinner edge and base is actually industry standard in this category of skis, Matt Sterbenz, Eric and I all thought it was a smart decision to reduce and gave the green light to the factory. Being it was already July, we were in a bit of a rush to get these built and I overlooked the effect a different edge thickness and based thickness has on a ski's flex. It was completely my fault for not considering this, I have enough experience where I should have immediately requested another set of samples to confirm before production.

Fast forward to today, what's built is built and there is no time to build more with a different flex for this winter season. We will instead spend this winter adjusting the flex for Eric to test and confirm. We will do this by simply adjusting only the thickness of the core profile. This is always the simplest way to adjust only the flex pattern and has very little effect on the weight or feel. 0.5mm wood core thickness can make a huge difference in flex and no noticeable effect on weight or feel. For next season we will bring the flex back to what was intended with Hoji's blessing and triple check flex prior to production.

HOW THE SKIS WILL PERFORM:
It's a softer overall flex than intended by approximately 15%. Wether you will love it, or hate it, can only be determined by riding it... just like any other ski. Remember, everything is relative and perception is 100% based on each person's ability and past experience and current skis. With many skiers never trying this ski with a different flex, it's impossibly for them to truly know how it will effect performance in what way, let alone how it feel for other skiers. Although to date on this forum we've all seen very strong opinions, they've all been based only on hearsay and speculation. There's only one way to know how a ski rides... and that is to ski it yourself.

IF YOU ALREADY PURCHASED THEM:
At this point they are sold out and we've already informed all of our customers by email as soon as we noticed the different flex. With all of our 4FRNT products we offer a 100% Money Back Guarantee. If for any reason after a few days of riding any of our skis you don't feel it's right for you. You can return them for a full refund or swap them out for a different size or model.

Thanks again to everyone here for caring so much about our brand and products. It's truly inspiring for all of us working so hard to do the right thing to hear the passion you have 4FRNT's place in skiing. We will continue to do everything possible to come through for you. Please keep sharing your suggestions and perspectives! Contact us anytime live chat at 4frnt.com, text or call us (801) 975-9500 with thoughts, questions or to just talk about skiing. Again my personal email is jason@4frnt.com hit me up anytime to remind me to get my ass on here to talk. THANKS!

This is phenomenal. Thank you for this response.

[Best Mexican Skier from Da South]

Bit the financial bullet and ordered the Praxis Protest UL Core at 192 with a (4) flex to replace the bastard Renegade of this year.

JLev, you fucked up the Renegade this year. Thanks for admitting that. I've only been skiing 2 years, this is my third, and I KNOW that changing base and edges would change ski characteristics... and don't even work in the ski industry.

You allude to people who have not ski'd the ski previously really wouldn't be able to tell a difference from the previous years... well, people aren't buying the Renegade, because they've ski'd or demo'd your skis (lack of availability of 4FRNT demo's is an issue). They are buying your skis based on numerous reviews/comments from Blister, 4FRNT website, and here. What can definitely be extrapolated is that if the ski were magically 15% softer prior to all the reviews, the reviews would have been DIFFERENT! So, the impression of the Ren's characteristics in the minds of buyers would also be different, and that may have lead to buyers looking elsewhere.

We know what we are looking for, and we do our best to research products. So, don't go saying that we shouldn't be concerned over a 15% softer flex if we have not ski'd the Ren previously. For a big mountain torpedo that the Ren was of previous productions, 15% is a huge deal... especially for bigger skiers... especially for backcountry trips when one is skiing with a pack.

Thank you for the honesty. Personally at this point, I feel a breakup occurring with 4FRNT. I think its time to see other people.

[reckless toboggan]

Good to have some additional info to make some decisions. Really glad JLev posted up.

Can't wait to hear the reviews once they start pouring in here.

[SUPERIOR]

I personally think a 15% softer Ren shouldn’t be terrible for those wanting to ski pure pow... ironic that the hiccup occurred after all the promotion for the Hoji movie. But can we talk about how the graphics on the new ski are pretty blahhh

[Best Mexican Skier from Da South]

I personally think a 15% softer Ren shouldn’t be terrible for those wanting to ski pure pow... ironic that the hiccup occurred after all the promotion for the Hoji movie. But can we talk about how the graphics on the new ski are pretty blahhh

Think about this: no 196 cm size + 15% softer flex will change a ski dramatically. Just cancelled my Ren 190 cm order. Order up for who ever wants a Bastard Renegade.