2019 4frnt Renegade Changes?

[Banh Mi]

We have tried light weight skis.. they arent as stable as heavy skis inbounds in any chunk

I dont think there is any way around that

When I’m skiing inbounds, I do not want a lighter ski, not for any reason whatsoever.

The big renegade went from 2600g/ski in 2015, to 1900g/ski in 2018?


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[DumbIdeasOnly]

To be fair to J, the comment he was responding to seemed a bit boneheaded to me too. I very seriously doubt that the material cost difference of a slightly thicker/thinner base material is remotely meaningful. To the extent base prices differ I would imagine it is mostly quality of material - the ON3P indestructo bases made of durasurf 4001 could cost more than mass market bases because the material spec is less common.

I may very well be wrong about that and thicker bases actually do cost more per unit by more than $10/pair of skis, but if you think that I'm hoping you have some evidence (like for example working for/owning a ski manufacturer or base material maker). Plastic is pretty cheap per unit weight most of the time.

On the other hand, a lot of what he said was very definitely marketing copy. I am not endorsing it.

[reckless toboggan]

Thinner bases and edges, therefore, less durability, and also lighter weight and soft flex, on a ski that, up until now, has been a solid and absolutely slaying big mountain charger stomp machine.

No thanks.

Again, it sounds like a Rossi Soul 7 (although the Soul 7 has a stiffer flex than this new Renegade). Great for 90% of the blue run skiers out there, but definitely not in the spirit of the Renegade, IMHO.

Seems to me that should have named this new ski the RENEGLADE.

[KyleLanTheman]

To be fair to J, the comment he was responding to seemed a bit boneheaded to me too. I very seriously doubt that the material cost difference of a slightly thicker/thinner base material is remotely meaningful. To the extent base prices differ I would imagine it is mostly quality of material - the ON3P indestructo bases made of durasurf 4001 could cost more than mass market bases because the material spec is less common.

I may very well be wrong about that and thicker bases actually do cost more per unit by more than $10/pair of skis, but if you think that I'm hoping you have some evidence (like for example working for/owning a ski manufacturer or base material maker). Plastic is pretty cheap per unit weight most of the time.

On the other hand, a lot of what he said was very definitely marketing copy. I am not endorsing it.

I wish I still worked for a plastic thermoforming business, I could have absolutely answered the plastic cost question. 5-10 bucks a ski isn't insignificant when manufacturing (I'm sure especially in the ski industry) has notoriously small margins. That's a 1-2% saving on every ski sold.

[DumbIdeasOnly]

I wish I still worked for a plastic thermoforming business, I could have absolutely answered the plastic cost question. 5-10 bucks a ski isn't insignificant when manufacturing (I'm sure especially in the ski industry) has notoriously small margins. That's a 1-2% saving on every ski sold.

I get your point that 5-10 could be meaningful. All margin dollars are meaningful in competitive businesses. That said, 4FRNT is probably ordering far less than 10K pairs across all effected models. I would be surprised if any reasonable person would try to take what is at most $100K in costs out of the business through base material and edges.

I don't know what 4FRNT's margins are on skis they actually sell, but I'd guess they are between $100 and $200 based on some prior comments. I get that $10/ski is 5-10% of the net margin, but it seems like a really dumb corner to cut to me. Even if J is more of a marketing/branding guy and less of an obsessive ski tinkerer like Scott or Luke, I own and like a pair of skis from his J brand.

[crashidy]

Outside bike and ski in canmore,ab has a pair of unmounted 196 black and green. 500$ cad.

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[reckless toboggan]

Outside bike and ski in canmore,ab has a pair of unmounted 196 black and green. 500$ cad.

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[emoji54][emoji54][emoji54]

Somebody needs to jump on those.

[skinipenem]

Let other ski companies make crappy lightweight skis that ski like shit. Stand on your own and continue to make the skis people love. Compete by making crap and you’ll disappear.


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One run mistake for this year per jlev initial response. 4frnt plans to change renegade for 2020-2021. Who knows this years might rock for all but 60mph dh turns? I got one would like to try them.

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[skinipenem]

Double post by retard..... me

[Best Mexican Skier from Da South]

We have tried light weight skis.. they arent as stable as heavy skis inbounds in any chunk

I dont think there is any way around that

When I’m skiing inbounds, I do not want a lighter ski, not for any reason whatsoever.

The big renegade went from 2600g/ski in 2015, to 1900g/ski in 2018?


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Agreed. Physics sets the limitations for light skis. No shape or technology can get around that.

[Best Mexican Skier from Da South]

All the rhetoric coming from JLev is damage control. That is expected. It's no surprise. The topic of the MSP's, and blah, blah, and making Hoji's skis stand out is just ludacris (Ha!). You can't say that the much heavier, smaller, trad camber MSP's are even in the same conversations as the Rens.

But honestly, changing the base and edges should have been communicated from the very beginning (Before accepting orders). That was the first lapse in respect for those who pay the bills (customers).

Secondly, making a change in production WITHOUT testing was either a result of JLev running 4FRNT like a side gig to J Skis, or JLev just plain screwing the pooch.

Thirdly, this could all be some business strategy to get the Renegade (Now "Bastard Renegade") to a more Blue Run crowd like a mag already suggested previously.

Fourthly, dropping the Ren changes late didn't allow for a negative response from the internet this past summer/fall.

Finally, dropping the changes info late would result in more units being accepted by the consumer "as is" due to the statistical influence of sunk cost fallacy. At this point, folks were already committed as the Ren was already a part of their ski season budget. They were already emotionally committed with stoke to ski the new Renegade. Or maybe they sold off some of their quiver to make room for the Renegade. There are lots of possible sunk cost fallacy components.

The late notification is the key piece. "Let people know late, and we can begin to tame the ski to the masses without a major $ hit in the year of change. After some time, news will fade of the Bastard Renegade and it WILL become the Renegade."

[reckless toboggan]

RENEGLADE

[whyturn]

I just got mine. It’s softer but not a noodle. Will mount and try 3 days and see. 3 days may take me all season though . I also got OG white room 186 to remind me of the good old days.

The armchair shit cracks me up. Guys who never skied Rens can piss off. Those of us who skied multiple gens and sizes will judge. Trust me if they fail I will be down in SLC and they will have some splaining to do.

[sf]

All the rhetoric coming from JLev is damage control. That is expected. It's no surprise. The topic of the MSP's, and blah, blah, and making Hoji's skis stand out is just ludacris (Ha!). You can't say that the much heavier, smaller, trad camber MSP's are even in the same conversations as the Rens.

But honestly, changing the base and edges should have been communicated from the very beginning (Before accepting orders). That was the first lapse in respect for those who pay the bills (customers).

Secondly, making a change in production WITHOUT testing was either a result of JLev running 4FRNT like a side gig to J Skis, or JLev just plain screwing the pooch.

Thirdly, this could all be some business strategy to get the Renegade (Now "Bastard Renegade") to a more Blue Run crowd like a mag already suggested previously.

Fourthly, dropping the Ren changes late didn't allow for a negative response from the internet this past summer/fall.

Finally, dropping the changes info late would result in more units being accepted by the consumer "as is" due to the statistical influence of sunk cost fallacy. At this point, folks were already committed as the Ren was already a part of their ski season budget. They were already emotionally committed with stoke to ski the new Renegade. Or maybe they sold off some of their quiver to make room for the Renegade. There are lots of possible sunk cost fallacy components.

The late notification is the key piece. "Let people know late, and we can begin to tame the ski to the masses without a major $ hit in the year of change. After some time, news will fade of the Bastard Renegade and it WILL become the Renegade."

Ever heard of Occam's razor? Or Hanlon's.....

[phallic-menace]

RENEGLADE

Nah. Bastard renegade

[nickel]

I've just been watching this thread from the sidelines but this strikes me.

We have tried light weight skis.. they arent as stable as heavy skis inbounds in any chunk

I dont think there is any way around that

When I’m skiing inbounds, I do not want a lighter ski, not for any reason whatsoever.

The big renegade went from 2600g/ski in 2015, to 1900g/ski in 2018?


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Aren't you dumping all your heavy skis and sticking with moment? they're pretty light skis depending on what vintage yours are?

[tuco]

Nah. Bastard renegade

Nah
Eunuchgade

[Banh Mi]

I've just been watching this thread from the sidelines but this strikes me.


Aren't you dumping all your heavy skis and sticking with moment? they're pretty light skis depending on what vintage yours are?

sorry for thread drift in advance. I never skied renegades, so I shouldn’t even be doing this in this thread, but now caught in weight web. I guess my recent actions do require explanation if I’m going to say that weight matters..


I dumped a lot of heavy sticks, and yes I am keeping the lighter moments. More to do with $$ and my current predicament, than ski weight. I do enjoy light weight skis, just not for crushing inbounds crud..

Im keeping my heaviest, stiffest skis for inbounds crushing, 191 Monster and 198 Katana. 2700g/ski. I’m beginning to hoard the older, 2400g/ski bibbys. I’m customizing a heavy maple wildcat and some heavy 3D PowderBoards next year.

Dont get me wrong, the lightweight wildcat is great fun, and my initial feeling is that they are great at everything, and more stable than the 196 Governors.. but I am re-realizing as the season goes on, that I do prefer the heaviest version for skiing fast in cruddy open terrain, which is a lot of the time. I probably could have just put the shifts on the 2100g Wildcats, and bought used bibbys for inbounds. Not a big deal, cuz I can use it for other purposes, but the lighter weight is noticeable at high speeds in crud. I bought the wildcat and pbjs as easy going freestyle skis that can still be driven, and they work great for that at my weight. As I get my feet under me this season, however I do notice as my speed increases, their slightly more limited top end becomes more obvious. Its like 10%, which correlates with the amount of weight they dropped..I was going to address this in the Moment thread after I put 15 days on dem. Great ski, but the heavier version does charge a little harder in firm crud. 10% weight drop seems to affect the upper 10% of their top end.. lol trying to quantify this in nonsense, but thats how it feels

All in all, They will be sticking around, even after heavier additions. Heavier versions would be better inbounds crushers, obviously. Im 220lbs nekkid, so my point of view is gonna be completely different from most people 185lbs or under. I mainly got rid of them other skis cuz I dont need that many and need to move out. I really dont have confidence to straightline chop at 60mph anymore, unless I’m on a super stiffy and in super stiffy plug boots. But then I still do have the lightweight moments for easy going days, where I can still ski fairly hard. Thats a better quiver for me, especially now that I’m getting ready to move to SoCal in 6 months.

In a few years, when ski obsession takes over me again, i’ll be back on billy goats and Rx for sure. But the monsters and wildcats honestly serve the ends of the spectrum for me right now.

This all doesnt matter one bit if the snow is soft..or if youre a really great skier. I notice that some of the better skiers out there dont have issues with lighter and even sometimes softer skis. They have insane balance though, I dont. If the ski starts moving a bit more, I start moving a bit more.

[DumbIdeasOnly]

All the rhetoric coming from JLev is damage control. That is expected. It's no surprise. The topic of the MSP's, and blah, blah, and making Hoji's skis stand out is just ludacris (Ha!). You can't say that the much heavier, smaller, trad camber MSP's are even in the same conversations as the Rens.

But honestly, changing the base and edges should have been communicated from the very beginning (Before accepting orders). That was the first lapse in respect for those who pay the bills (customers).

Secondly, making a change in production WITHOUT testing was either a result of JLev running 4FRNT like a side gig to J Skis, or JLev just plain screwing the pooch.

Thirdly, this could all be some business strategy to get the Renegade (Now "Bastard Renegade") to a more Blue Run crowd like a mag already suggested previously.

Fourthly, dropping the Ren changes late didn't allow for a negative response from the internet this past summer/fall.

Finally, dropping the changes info late would result in more units being accepted by the consumer "as is" due to the statistical influence of sunk cost fallacy. At this point, folks were already committed as the Ren was already a part of their ski season budget. They were already emotionally committed with stoke to ski the new Renegade. Or maybe they sold off some of their quiver to make room for the Renegade. There are lots of possible sunk cost fallacy components.

The late notification is the key piece. "Let people know late, and we can begin to tame the ski to the masses without a major $ hit in the year of change. After some time, news will fade of the Bastard Renegade and it WILL become the Renegade."

You are not a special snow flake. JLev does not care about you.

The skis are a bit softer than anyone meant them to be. They are not going to explode crippling you for life. Ski them, see if you like them. If you don't, return and order a replacement from someone else. If you do like the rens, live with the reality you are part of the "Blue Run crowd." Only thing that gets hurt is your pride because you liked the Eunuchglade.

[Self Jupiter]

He’s special in my mind. An athlete and a savant.

[whyturn]

Where’s the car


Where’s the car


Light skis work fine in untracked


I’m tempted to put shifts on mine.


And this thread has just drifted into

[Banh Mi]

Nickel called me out like I’m a hypocrite, deservedly I guess cuz of my recent actions, and I felt I had to explain the situation a bit. Sorry for thread drift, I’m outta here.


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[dcpnz]

To be fair to J, the comment he was responding to seemed a bit boneheaded to me too.

You know what is boneheaded?
Changing the production layup AFTER spending a year designing, prototyping and testing ski redesigns and getting “final” athlete signoff.

[tuco]

You know what is boneheaded?
Changing the production layup AFTER spending a year designing, prototyping and testing ski redesigns and getting “final” athlete signoff.

Yep

[whyturn]

So Jlev has hoji skied this version yet? His name is on the top sheet. What does he think of how it skis?