Ok, this global warming shit is getting out of hand...

[WMD]

Are you in a 2 car household? We have a beater EV that we use as our grocery getter and for trips to the local hill. They are cheap to buy and operate and ours is theoretically solar-powered when it charges at home.

I've tried to buy various plug in hybrids and EV's over the last few cars, but not a lot of them make it to Montana. When our Jetta TDI was recalled (bought because it was green car of the year 2010 - ha fucking ha - we blew that one) we tried to get a plug in hybrid Chrysler Pacifica as its replacement. We waited nearly a year only to realize they would only be released in states with stricter fuel standards like CA and OR.

I'm going to try again this fall to replace my diesel Jeep (also bought because it was "green" - fuck!) with an EV. I'll give up rough dirt road driving and ability to pull the raft out of rough take outs, but I think I'll just sell the raft too as we don't all need our own stuff.

[4matic]

Matters not what we do, China is pumping out Co2 at a furious pace that is dwarfing ours currently.

They are also way ahead in their commitment to Paris Accord. We just exported our pollution to China.

[Conundrum]

Don't forget no farting.

Like I'm actually making my own lifestyle changes.

[AdironRider]

Yeah their commitment was a fucking joke though.

[muted]

Absolutely. If I drive an EV it won't make the slightest difference at all in curbing climate change.

That contradicts your statement that one person voting works.

[4matic]

Yeah their commitment was a fucking joke though.

China digs coal. Just like the GOP.

[muted]

The changes that would need to be made are only going to come from the gov't. They are the only ones with the power to make legislation and enforce it.

Any major, abrupt changes would kill commerce and inflation would be an issue for the folks who are least equipped to deal with it's effects.

Matters not what we do, China is pumping out Co2 at a furious pace that is dwarfing ours currently.

The China excuse is, and always has been, bullshit.

[Slopetime]

They are also way ahead in their commitment to Paris Accord. We just exported our pollution to China.

Now that may very well be true, interesting point. I saw a report that showed a significant decrease in Co2 output in the US. China was much worse in their Co2 emissions.

The commitment may be there, but I'm not sure about the results.

[4matic]

When the world economy gets better people buy more junk.

[4matic]

The China excuse is, and always has been, bullshit.

When you don’t believe in science and practice voodoo economics it’s a great excuse.

[SumJongGuy]

When the world economy gets better people buy more junk.

And burn more fuel getting to junk friendly places to play with the junk.

[Dantheman]

I know what will help, more corporate welfare for agribusiness: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tr...D=ansmsnnews11

In case you weren't aware, corn ethanol is a net energy loss. Nothing green about it.


RE: Population - What neufox said. Educate and empower women and provide easy access to birth control and birth rates fall rapidly. The overall rate of global population growth is falling steeply already. Almost every developed country has a TFR below replacement level, many of them are almost scarily low. A rapidly declining population has it's own set of consequences with potential for huge societal disruptions. It is not desireable. You want a soft landing at a stable population, possibly followed by very slow decline.

[Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo]

I know what will help, more corporate welfare for agribusiness: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tr...D=ansmsnnews11

In case you weren't aware, corn ethanol is a net energy loss. Nothing green about it.


RE: Population - What neufox said. Educate and empower women and provide easy access to birth control and birth rates fall rapidly. The overall rate of global population growth is falling steeply already. Almost every developed country has a TFR below replacement level, many of them are almost scarily low. A rapidly declining population has it's own set of consequences with potential for huge societal disruptions. It is not desireable. You want a soft landing at a stable population, possibly followed by very slow decline.

If you like ethanol you'll love the mental gymnastics on this one.. https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.a779a1de81c8

[Slopetime]

I know what will help, more corporate welfare for agribusiness: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tr...D=ansmsnnews11

In case you weren't aware, corn ethanol is a net energy loss. Nothing green about it.

And it'll fuck up an engine for damn sure, especially the small HP yard tool engines.

[SumJongGuy]

Take a look at all the politicians whose families are raking in big corn subsidies..

[Sirshredalot]

I've tried to buy various plug in hybrids and EV's over the last few cars, but not a lot of them make it to Montana. When our Jetta TDI was recalled (bought because it was green car of the year 2010 - ha fucking ha - we blew that one) we tried to get a plug in hybrid Chrysler Pacifica as its replacement. We waited nearly a year only to realize they would only be released in states with stricter fuel standards like CA and OR.

I'm going to try again this fall to replace my diesel Jeep (also bought because it was "green" - fuck!) with an EV. I'll give up rough dirt road driving and ability to pull the raft out of rough take outs, but I think I'll just sell the raft too as we don't all need our own stuff.

We kept our gasser (Outback with 100k on it) and got a used Leaf for 8 grand as our around-town car.

FCA claims that they will have full electrification as they refresh their lineup over the next year or two. You can hold out for a plug-in long wheelbase Wrangler in a year, for example. I think something like that will replace our Outback eventually.

[WMD]

We kept our gasser (Outback with 100k on it) and got a used Leaf for 8 grand as our around-town car.

FCA claims that they will have full electrification as they refresh their lineup over the next year or two. You can hold out for a plug-in long wheelbase Wrangler in a year, for example. I think something like that will replace our Outback eventually.

Interesting. 30-40 miles electric would cover most of our driving, even for skiing. I can wait a bit for that.

[Sirshredalot]

Interesting. 30-40 miles electric would cover most of our driving, even for skiing. I can wait a bit for that.

Supposedly, it's getting a version of the PHEV system from the Pacifica.

If the Wrangler pickup gets that as an option, they can take my money. That would be quite the fun MTB vehicle. But FCA is staying tight-lipped about that car.

[SumJongGuy]

Aen't we still in the reality that when the production, disposal, recycling attempts, etc and electricity for charging are factored in the carbon footprint of EVs is still larger (or very close to gas vehicles) for the total lifecycle production to disposal? We just get some satisfaction knowing we aren't burning gas while driving them around. Not sure which is true but I've heard both sides of the footprint compares and it's a lot closer than some would find worth the effort.

[Sirshredalot]

Aen't we still in the reality that when the production, disposal, recycling attempts, etc and electricity for charging are factored in the carbon footprint of EVs is still larger (or very close to gas vehicles) for the total lifecycle production to disposal? We just get some satisfaction knowing we aren't burning gas while driving them around. Not sure which is true but I've heard both sides of the footprint compares and it's a lot closer than some would find worth the effort.

That's always been bullshit. The manufacturing is about a push (and could theoretically be done in a carbon neutral way for either ICE or EVs). The batteries get recycled very readily by every OEM currently making EVs. And, obviously, the electrical grid is as clean as we want it to be. Generation by renewables is now cheaper than fossil fuel generation in many - if not most - places. And if you're pissed that your local utility isn't green enough, sticking a PV array on your roof is pretty cheap these days.

[SumJongGuy]

That's always been bullshit. The manufacturing is about a push (and could theoretically be done in a carbon neutral way for either ICE or EVs). The batteries get recycled very readily by every OEM currently making EVs. And, obviously, the electrical grid is as clean as we want it to be. Generation by renewables is now cheaper than fossil fuel generation in many - if not most - places. And if you're pissed that your local utility isn't green enough, sticking a PV array on your roof is pretty cheap these days.

There are states taxing solar panels and wind turbines to the extreme that they cost more than the grid power, a LOT more.

Got any documentation on the % of materials that get recycled in these batteries versus dumped? Like I said, I've herd it both ways.

Here's a good one
https://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-neal...-emissions-953

[MultiVerse]

Aen't we still in the reality that when the production, disposal, recycling attempts, etc and electricity for charging are factored in the carbon footprint of EVs is still larger (or very close to gas vehicles) for the total lifecycle production to disposal? We just get some satisfaction knowing we aren't burning gas while driving them around. Not sure which is true but I've heard both sides of the footprint compares and it's a lot closer than some would find worth the effort.

As the power grid becomes cleaner so do EVs because more electricity is being generated from renewable sources of energy. "Over their lifetime, battery electric vehicles produce far less global warming pollution than their gasoline counterparts—and they’re getting cleaner. Battery electric cars generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for."

Source

[muted]

There are states taxing solar panels and wind turbines to the extreme that they cost more than the grid power, a LOT more.

Got any documentation on the % of materials that get recycled in these batteries versus dumped? Like I said, I've herd it both ways.

Here's a good one
https://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-neal...-emissions-953

In case no one clicks on the link, it says "On average, battery electric vehicles (BEVs) representative of those sold today produce less than half the global warming emissions of comparable gasoline-powered vehicles, even when the higher emissions associated with BEV manufacturing are taken into consideration. Based on modeling of the two most popular BEVs available today and the regions where they are currently being sold, excess manufacturing emissions are offset within 6 to 16 months of driving."



I didn't know it was that much of a difference. It contradicts what you posted earlier though about "Not sure which is true but I've heard both sides of the footprint compares and it's a lot closer than some would find worth the effort."

[neufox47]

I hope that by 2020 my entire house will be powered by solar (all electric heat, stove, etc), with battery storage that means we could practically be off the grid, with one electric car, and one small pickup that will get less than 5k miles a year. Unfortunately the amount I fly for work means my carbon footprint will still be large. But anyone with my job is going to travel a lot.

[neufox47]

Climate Scientist Dr. Sarah Myhre on the Peril and Possibilities Ahead: 'We Need Leadership That Is Not Old and White and Male'


https://theslot.jezebel.com/climate-...oss-1829602131

We need representative leadership. We need leadership that is not old, white, and male. We need leadership that is truly representative of the communities that they serve. That leadership has the capacity to extend moral weight and value to communities of color, indigenous communities, and to women.
One of the next things that we need to do is, we need to indict public brokers of power for their complicity and complacency in the face of this information. That means we look directly at these companies who are the wealthiest companies in the history of this planet. All of the components of leadership of these public companies should be indicted and shamed. They shouldn’t be able to hide between their fancy yachts and their billions of dollars.
We need policy and legislation that can put a price on carbon. We need collective mechanisms to change behavior.
And the last on my list is individual action, because I think that’s often front-loaded in the narrative of climate solutions, and I don’t think that’s appropriate or true. Not eating meat, not eating dairy, taking public transportation, divesting from fossil fuels products, reducing plastic usage. Changing your vehicle to an electric vehicle, reducing or limiting your activity flying. All of those are on the table for individual choices and actions, but what we don’t often talk about is how classist those frames are. Because only the wealthiest of us can buy an electric vehicle and comprehensively reduce our greenhouse gas footprint. Because those of us who are struggling to pay rent, we cannot invest in a new vehicle.
We don’t often talk about the classist frame of climate action and reveal it to be a sort of whitewashing. It disenfranchises huge groups of people and it’s a mechanism for public shaming.

I’m going to stick with the guys who got the Nobel in Economics plan over that one. Other than reduce consumption, what is her plan? Shame rich, old white guys? How will that reduce carbon emissions again? Is Ben Stein included in that list to shame?

Tax the polluters to reward low carbon producers, incentivize development and implementation of new technologies seems like a much easier path.