Praxis Protest..just how cool is it?

[swissiphic]

What was bugging me about the Protests (in about 9" of moderately heavy powder) is that they didn't float better than the Q's, and I had to tailgun to keep the tips up. What's up with that?

Borrowed a buddy's pair of 177cm protests mounted with dynafit vertical st, don't know mount point, don't know what flex the skis are.

Buddy loves his Protests and skiing with him in various conditions and I can confirm he looks normal in most snow conditions.

Did a coupla laps in 50+cms dump of fresh moist mostly unconsolidated spring powtatos. Couldn't find a sweet spot, tips dove, tried to ski centered, less tip dive but skis didn't feel right...was just surviving the run rather than truly skiing. Couldn't figure out the the skis.

a/b'd with some armada kufo 178's; kufos better tip float and could ski them with a more traditional tip pressure turn initiation and felt more 'right'.

a/b/c'd them with my custom modded 174cms k2 darksides and felt the most love with the darksides.

[meter-man]

If the Verticals weren't shimmed, I'd wager that was the problem. The ramp angle on Verticals causes (at least for me) the feelings you're describing.

Can't say I've ever experienced tip dive in 25ish days on STH and 35ish on Kingpins. I'm on 187s but would probably be better on 192 or 196s.

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[auvgeek]

a/b/c'd them with my custom modded 174cms k2 darksides and felt the most love with the darksides.

Have you liked any other RR skis? They take some getting used to.

[galibier_numero_un]

Have you liked any other RR skis? They take some getting used to.

I always get confused with this acronym.

RR = rocker / reverse camber (or CCR in Praxis lingo)?
or
rocker / reverse sidecut?

Protests are rocker / camber / rocker with normal sidecut.

What am I missing (other than not yet having figured out there skis)?

... Thom

[doebedoe]

I always get confused with this acronym.

RR = rocker / reverse camber (or CCR in Praxis lingo)?
or
rocker / reverse sidecut?

Protests are rocker / camber / rocker with normal sidecut.

What am I missing (other than not yet having figured out there skis)?

... Thom

Technically Protest isn't a RR, true.

But it has a shit ton of taper, and very little camber contact. I wouldn't call it's side cut "normal" given how short it is in comparison with the taper, and how long that radius is.

[galibier_numero_un]

Technically Protest isn't a RR, true.

But it has a shit ton of taper, and very little camber contact. I wouldn't call it's side cut "normal" given how short it is in comparison with the taper, and how long that radius is.

My pair has roughly the same camber as my GPOs (about 5mm base to base). They have similar camber contact length (97 vs. 100) and the early, gradual tip rise is similar as well. Tip & tail rocker points are nearly identical as well.

They ski hardpack similarly to my GPOs, with the Protests arcing longer turns and obviously being slower from edge to edge. It's interesting, how rock solid stable they are in these conditions, considering the short effective edge length - not that it's the first thing you look for in a powder ski ;-)

Indeed, the biggest observable difference is that the Protests have a lot more tip taper (54 vs. 34) and proportionately less sidecut (105 vs. 133) in a 187. This is my best guess as to what's not working for me. I'm just happy that I'm in the minority, so when folks start having powder dreams in the Fall, they'll find a new home.

Longer sidecut contributing? Beats me. My Down CD 104s have a long sidecut and we've bonded nicely.

Who knows? I ain't no ski designer. I can't even keep the acronyms straight ;-)

... Thom

[waxoff]

I always get confused with this acronym.

RR = rocker / reverse camber (or CCR in Praxis lingo)?
or
rocker / reverse sidecut?

Protests are rocker / camber / rocker with normal sidecut.

What am I missing (other than not yet having figured out there skis)?

... Thom

RR= Reverse camber, Reverse sidecut. So you weren't too far off in the lingo department!

[swissiphic]

Have you liked any other RR skis? They take some getting used to.

meterman: all my skis are higher ramp angled vertical st's or shimmed heelpieced g3's to match the st ramp angle. Can't ski on low ramp angle binders due to my own particular anatomy/preference, high ramp works for me, lower ramp always results in backseat feeling/non ball of foot pressure stance.

As for RR skis...never skied true RR. Have a pair of 185, volkl kuro and some 185 volkl 2's. kuros have limited appeal; don't like the lack of tail in backcountry snow and getting thrown back seat in slabby snow and facets under crust. Was VERY surprised at how well they slay soft smooth groomers for their width and how fun they are in steep crud and refrozen crap...pivot and slarve, eezee peezee. Similar/not quite as much love with the volkl 2's. volkl 2's are pretty good but also needs more tail in backcountry conditions and feels a bit not hooky but overturny from the front of skis....and yeah, maybe i just don't jive with these basic designs but I'm custom modding and have felt more love with every outing after the little tweaks.

other skis that work for me; love my 185 armada jj r/c/r, 180 salomon rocker 2 122, and k2 darksides...which are by now rocker/flat/flat due to being completely worn out but for me, just feel nicely broken in.

skis i didn't like at all; Rossi super 7 180 and 188, 185 solly qst 118.

[galibier_numero_un]

RR= Reverse camber, Reverse sidecut. So you weren't too far off in the lingo department!

So many R's, so little time ;-)

[auvgeek]

My pair has roughly the same camber as my GPOs (about 5mm base to base). They have similar camber contact length (97 vs. 100) and the early, gradual tip rise is similar as well. Tip & tail rocker points are nearly identical as well.

They ski hardpack similarly to my GPOs, with the Protests arcing longer turns and obviously being slower from edge to edge. It's interesting, how rock solid stable they are in these conditions, considering the short effective edge length - not that it's the first thing you look for in a powder ski ;-)

Indeed, the biggest observable difference is that the Protests have a lot more tip taper (54 vs. 34) and proportionately less sidecut (105 vs. 133) in a 187. This is my best guess as to what's not working for me. I'm just happy that I'm in the minority, so when folks start having powder dreams in the Fall, they'll find a new home.

Longer sidecut contributing? Beats me. My Down CD 104s have a long sidecut and we've bonded nicely.

Who knows? I ain't no ski designer. I can't even keep the acronyms straight ;-)

... Thom

The Protest was Tabke's take on a Spatula on which he didn't have to fear the "Spatula Splits" in comps. In the original version, he took a true RR (Spatula) and added a touch of sidecut and a touch of camber. I think subsequent iterations have added more sidecut and more camber, but if you don't get along with other heavily tapered, long-radius skis, you won't like the Protest -- hence my question. It's just a different feeling having the majority of the sidecut underfoot rather than in the tip.

[galibier_numero_un]

The Protest was Tabke's take on a Spatula on which he didn't have to fear the "Spatula Splits" in comps. In the original version, he took a true RR (Spatula) and added a touch of sidecut and a touch of camber. I think subsequent iterations have added more sidecut and more camber, but if you don't get along with other heavily tapered, long-radius skis, you won't like the Protest -- hence my question. It's just a different feeling having the majority of the sidecut underfoot rather than in the tip.

That's good info. Thanks!

What's interesting is that the ski is totally intuitive on hardpack - to the point where I can drive the tips in my sleep.

It's when skiing in its intended environment that confuses me. I feel like a tail gunning gaper.

I guess that's what heavy tip taper is all about.

... Thom

[Island Bay]

How did they seem to tour in japan? My plan is to get to Japan this year and I didnt want to be stuck with a non touring set up...

Unreal.

I always bring a narrower pair (MVPs), but never get off the Protests. They’re just that good.

128mm underfoot would suck if forced to follow poorly planned, steep and icy skintracks, but it’s never been an issue.

[ALFONSO618]

Finally dipped into the Protest cookie jar and mounted em tonight... couldn’t be happier with the custom topsheet! Gonna be a while till I’m on em but pumped for that day!


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[PlayItLeo]

^^^^ hot sex ^^^^^


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[cmsummit]

Just picked up N!CK's 2x drilled OG 188 Protests....thanks brotha! Looks like I can mount with Kingpins at 101.5cm from tip, so that's what I'm gonna do. I regret getting rid of my Powderboards, so I'm stoked to get back on some FAT Praxis.

Can't wait to drink the Kool Aid (again)!!!

[Banh Mi]

Finally dipped into the Protest cookie jar and mounted em tonight... couldn’t be happier with the custom topsheet! Gonna be a while till I’m on em but pumped for that day!


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Holy shit, those are awesome. How did you customize the core/flex?


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[nickel]

That's good info. Thanks!

What's interesting is that the ski is totally intuitive on hardpack - to the point where I can drive the tips in my sleep.

It's when skiing in its intended environment that confuses me. I feel like a tail gunning gaper.

I guess that's what heavy tip taper is all about.

... Thom

I have yet to ski the protest but have skied a few similar-ish shapes. Based on your previous comment about the speed you ski and your desire for tight turns, could it be that you're trying to ski it too much like a traditional ski? As in unweighting, pushing the tips down and into the turn? This is also the only type of behavior I've heard associated with tip dive on this ski...

[galibier_numero_un]

I have yet to ski the protest but have skied a few similar-ish shapes. Based on your previous comment about the speed you ski and your desire for tight turns, could it be that you're trying to ski it too much like a traditional ski? As in unweighting, pushing the tips down and into the turn? This is also the only type of behavior I've heard associated with tip dive on this ski...

Thanks. Just to be clear, by tight turns, I mean pivot-ability in Colorado (dense) trees ... something I find intuitive with my Qs, easy with my GPOs and to a slightly lesser extent, my dearly departed Billy Goats.

None of them have tip dived even remotely like the Protests. If anything, my Qs are teaching me to ski a slight bit more centered and it's technique that I'm adapting to and adopting. In back to back runs on moderate terrain in about 12" of medium weight powder, I felt centered on my Qs and was tail gunning on the Protests to get the tips up.

This will go down as a mystery for me. I've been on too many skis which have resulted in instant connection to worry about why one particular ski isn't working for me.

Of course, it bugs me a bit, but only from the perspective of wanting to share data with the group, but I'm now an outlier with respect to a universally loved ski, and so it goes

Some lucky owner will no doubt love these, and they deserve some luvin': https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...97#post5318197

... Thom

[Banh Mi]

Sometimes a ski just doesnt work for ya..

The only way to confirm, would be to get on someone else’s pair


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[2FUNKY]

Where are yours mounted Thom? Forward lean set to on boots?

[Banh Mi]

Do you feel like you just arent getting on with the ski, or does something feel wrong?

Do you feel too locked in, like the skis are dictating the turn shape and they wont pivot off the edge easily?


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[Muggydude]

I didn’t quite click with my Protests / felt I had to lean back to keep them up (felt some tip dive) until I realized that they aren’t really meant to feel like the tips are just floating on top like Pontoons or just more traditional Skis in general where the tip is the widest part.

The skis felt way more confidence inspiring and natural when I started trying to ski “in the snow” instead of on top. Not necessarily just leaning forward and having your upper body really start to try to sink the tips, but letting the ski get into the snow a bit.

Being in the weird limbo of leaning back and then sometimes getting bumped forward can feel like tip dive, where as when I trying to ski in the snow, pressure on the balls of my foot, resulting in loading the skis up middle of the turn and kind of rebounding out towards the end into the next turn (think those epic powder skiing clips where the skier sorta bounds from turn to turn) - that really was awesome. It’s just a different style and sensation of floating when all the float is directly underfoot.

After that they were total hero sticks for me.
Not the best description of what I felt, but the summary of it was once I learned to trust the Skis they were awesome

[2FUNKY]

I hope my new 192’s exhibit none of that since my 188’s don’t.

[galibier_numero_un]

Where are yours mounted Thom? Forward lean set to on boots?

187s mounted at -1.5 (102 straight-pull from the tip).

Lange XT-130s - my first boot with a "flat" stance and I've been loving it for the past two seasons. I do run the internal spoiler in it which has worked beautifully with my entire quiver.

Do you feel like you just arent getting on with the ski, or does something feel wrong?

Do you feel too locked in, like the skis are dictating the turn shape and they wont pivot off the edge easily?

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That's a good way of putting it - that the skis are dictating the turn shape (won't pivot). Of course, I'm in the minority in this regard. Then, there's Muggy's comments ...

I didn’t quite click with my Protests / felt I had to lean back to keep them up (felt some tip dive) until I realized that they aren’t really meant to feel like the tips are just floating on top like Pontoons or just more traditional Skis in general where the tip is the widest part.

The skis felt way more confidence inspiring and natural when I started trying to ski “in the snow” instead of on top. Not necessarily just leaning forward and having your upper body really start to try to sink the tips, but letting the ski get into the snow a bit.

Being in the weird limbo of leaning back and then sometimes getting bumped forward can feel like tip dive, where as when I trying to ski in the snow, pressure on the balls of my foot, resulting in loading the skis up middle of the turn and kind of rebounding out towards the end into the next turn (think those epic powder skiing clips where the skier sorta bounds from turn to turn) - that really was awesome. It’s just a different style and sensation of floating when all the float is directly underfoot.

After that they were total hero sticks for me.
Not the best description of what I felt, but the summary of it was once I learned to trust the Skis they were awesome

Wow, Muggy! That's the first time I've heard this. I never would have thought about such a wide ski working best, skiing in (and not on top of) the snow. In retrospect, it makes sense, given that the tip isn't the widest part of the ski. That limbo situation you describe rings true as well.

... Thom

[Muggydude]

The clarification I’ll give is that for me I found they skied best when I skied them sort of the way I’d ski a 100mm wide ski in lighter Pow - those can be real fun to ski in the snow, where you sort of bounce from turn to turn (rather than sitting on your heels all day)

With the protests I say ski “in the snow” in terms of style, and indeed you will get into the snow somewhat when you load your weight into a turn - however all that surface area does keep you aloft underfoot, and pops you out again with a lot of awesome energy. I was worried about getting pitched forward for a while until I learned to trust the skis with my weight more forward that the tips wouldn’t dive on me. After a while I ended up feeling like the more I pushed, the more float and pop back out of the snow I got from the Skis. This is more in cutout heavy deep snow, in untracked and lighter snow I could always do whatever I wanted on them.


Always super quick to slash and smear from directly underfoot too. On skis like the protest, having really well fitting boots and heel hold is key in my opinion, because you need to have a lot of lateral control and any play in your boots will kill that and cause a sense of “lag” when you try to pivot in tight colorado trees. Having my boots loose becomes outright dangerous and is pretty crazy how much less control I have with such big skis in deep/heavy snow.

I’m not a tall guy (5’9, when I was last on Protests about 180 lbs), but I enjoyed pivoting and billygoating around in the trees with my 192s

All that being said, I did remount my second pair of 192s back ~1.25 cm. If I was on 187s I’d maybe go back -1.5 to -2cm (which would be about 102.5-103cm from the tips.