Running, Anyone...?

[GeezerSteve]

As a general rule, most trail 50Ks are easier on the body than road marathons. The former is a mix of running, shuffling, walking and jogging different speeds with a variety of stride lengths and foot strike angles. The latter is the same motion over and over and over again.

A strong backpacker can finish many trail 50K courses without any run training.

So you're saying instead of runnning 15-20 miles/wk, I should just try to run 3-4 hours/wk? it seems like it would accomplish the same thing.

Well, for most people they do not accomplish the same thing. Training per miles promotes running faster than MAF, e.g., the horse heading back to the barn effect. Running by time encourages people to slow down, staying well under MAF.

[babybear]

^ I also found it revelatory when I learned that most ultra runners walk a lot of the hills/ if you can't see the top you hike it- that blew my mind

ran into these 2 on my run today- luckily and easy place to spin around and take another trail junction

[galibier_numero_un]

There was a time when I was stuck in an East Coast megalopolis where 10ks and half marathons made sense to me

Several years later, running with my ultra buddies in the Sierra Foothills really opened my eyes.

Now, I'd far sooner cover 30k on a trail than 5k on pavement.

To each his/her own of course, but Steve lays it out quite well as far as body stress is concerned (lack of repetitive motion, etc.).

... Thom

[wyeaster]

i ran a lot of miles on pavement. now even walking on pavement for extended periods goes straight up to my knees, then my lower back and i'm fucked. i'm grateful i can still snowboard but i miss running and would give up a lot to be able to trail run for years in forest park and never touch road again.

[nutmegchoi]

Reading through these make me feel like my knees and hips will go out tomorrow...

[plugboots]

Maybe not tomorrow, but...

[brutah]

Well, for most people they do not accomplish the same thing. Training per miles promotes running faster than MAF, e.g., the horse heading back to the barn effect. Running by time encourages people to slow down, staying well under MAF.

excuse my ignorance, but what is MAF? Mass Air Flow? Max Aerobic Frequency?

I run on pavement, dirt roads and trails. A lot of loops I run often will require a few road miles to complete or there are times where the convenience of running out my door is greater than driving to a trailhead. I also like to run when I travel which often translates to pounding pavement.

The most significant impact I've made for my knee pain has been weight loss. I'm currently a little soft, but when my weight hovers around 200 lbs, my joints feel much better.

[galibier_numero_un]

... The most significant impact I've made for my knee pain has been weight loss. I'm currently a little soft, but when my weight hovers around 200 lbs, my joints feel much better.

BIG factor that often gets overlooked by folks who keep bumping their milage to accommodate even more calorie intake.

Ever since I decoupled the two, I've been a happier camper. It's all relative, but I feel the same way with a magic number of 165Lbs.

... Thom

[babybear]

excuse my ignorance, but what is MAF? Mass Air Flow? Max Aerobic Frequency?

The most significant impact I've made for my knee pain has been weight loss. I'm currently a little soft, but when my weight hovers around 200 lbs, my joints feel much better.

MAF is the method of this guy Dr Phil Maffetone- https://philmaffetone.com/
very basic cliffnotes - he's coached world class athletes (mostly ultra/distance athletes)- he promotes keeping heart rate low and he's not a fan of sugars and basic carbs (neither am I unless I am hung over)
but enjoy going down the rabbit hole of his site- lots of interesting reading/ articles

[wyeaster]

weight makes an enormous difference

[Viva]

BIG factor that often gets overlooked by folks who keep bumping their milage to accommodate even more calorie intake.

Ever since I decoupled the two, I've been a happier camper. It's all relative...

So glad that you were able to "de-couple" that. Would hate to read later that you starved to death.

I just became more hungry, when I ramped up mileage.

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[babybear]

when I carry extra weight it’s not my knees but my b00bs that hurt like a mofo


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[nutmegchoi]

Panache, my friend.
Expensive, but best sports bra for larger than B cups.
I invested enough to learn my lesson.
I only run with this sports bra.

I wear this.

https://www.barenecessities.com/pana...id=Panache7341

If you want more support.

https://www.barenecessities.com/pana...id=Panache5021

[wyeaster]

i've been heavy enough to deal with that! 250 on a 5'9" frame built for 175.

[nutmegchoi]

-15lbs.
Another 15 pounds to go!

[wyeaster]

nice job!

[nutmegchoi]

nice job!

Thank you!
I feel pretty good right now.
Finally clothes fit better.
Maybe I can finally fit back to my snowboard onesie this winter!!!

[GeezerSteve]

excuse my ignorance, but what is MAF?

maximum aerobic function threshold

See b-bear's links re Phil Maffetone. His training methods, and very similar methods based on the same set of premises, have become the standard training theories of elite endurance athletes, and they work just as well for amateurs. In a nutshell, the training methods of Maffetone, et. al. are about training to run faster at a slower HR. When you train too fast (above MAF) you'll never get faster at a lower HR. For a not so brief summary of Maffetone's theory, see Want speed? Slow down.

[galibier_numero_un]

So glad that you were able to "de-couple" that. Would hate to read later that you starved to death.

I just became more hungry, when I ramped up mileage.

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No danger of starving to death ;-)

Yeah, we get hungrier, but at least in my case, I've found the tendency to want to stuff more in my pie hole than what I've burned.

Only back in the days when I logged 50 miles per week, were calories burned > calories consumed. Of course that also meant at least two fat burning runs which helped with the metabolic equation.

... Thom

[galibier_numero_un]

MAF is the method of this guy Dr Phil Maffetone- https://philmaffetone.com/
very basic cliffnotes - he's coached world class athletes (mostly ultra/distance athletes)- he promotes keeping heart rate low and he's not a fan of sugars and basic carbs (neither am I unless I am hung over)
but enjoy going down the rabbit hole of his site- lots of interesting reading/ articles

I've definitely gravitated away from sugars and starches. It's helped me. I realize it's annecdotal information, and that most folks will not give up their pizza and beer.

I like his comment: fit but not healthy - an error I made through most of my life.

I've been going to a functional medicine doctor for several years, and he emphasizes the same things (inflammation, etc).

[Edit] been reading through Maffetone's site. Impressive stuff.

... Thom

[mall walker]

-15lbs.
Another 15 pounds to go!

Congrats! I was mildly surprised there wasn't a general TGR weight loss / exercise / health thread (or I didn't find one) but I've been on the same journey. I'm about 15lbs down, thinking maybe 5 to go, or at least until I look the way I want to look.

Whatcha been doing? I have been running a 500cal/day deficit, tracking 100% of what I eat/drink, ramping up running, 3 days/week strength training, and also ramping up walking (power walk for ~45 mins to an hour a day, whether or not I've run), etc. Also gave up soda (even though I was on 100% diet soda), candy, cookies, etc - basically all the junk food except for fries sometimes, and beer. One must still live, after all. Oh and I drink a gallon min of water a day, and aside from water just unsweetened iced green tea I make at home, when I need caffeine, which is shockingly infrequent considering how much of it I used to drink. I think I drank an average of 3L/day of diet mountain dew lol.

I'm not so sophisticated that I'm into the macro-calories game yet, but having lived to my mid-30s without ever really knowing how many calories were in what, it's been stunning to see what's so bad and what's not so bad. I picked up a salted caramel cookie on my birthday and thought fuck it, it's my birthday, but that fucker was 350 calories lol. That's like a smallish cheeseburger ffs.

[bagtagley]

I learned a lot following Maffetone’s method. I’m a believer and would use it again if I was training for something long. Just be prepared to change the way you train and run. If you’re running on hills, it can be mind numbing. Lot of walking in the build up. Lot of long runs covering short distances. It highlights progress, though, and ends up being really rewarding if you stick with it.

It inherently teaches pace control and awareness of heart rate that’s transferred well to long bike rides. Not just the ability to go faster for the same level of effort, but the ability to go longer with less fatigue and less reliance on food.

[GeezerSteve]

Congrats! I was mildly surprised there wasn't a general TGR weight loss / exercise / health thread (or I didn't find one) but I've been on the same journey. I'm about 15lbs down, thinking maybe 5 to go, or at least until I look the way I want to look.

Congrats to both of you. Such a thread should exist.

I learned a lot following Maffetone’s method. I’m a believer and would use it again if I was training for something long.

It sorta became a way of life for me during my big ultra years (roughly 10 years). I should get back to it.

[2bjenny]

-15lbs.
Another 15 pounds to go!

Nice! I dropped about 15 lbs this summer with the trail running and would like to lose another 10 for more trail running and skiing. I have been informed by friends that I am going to be doing some bc trips that involve skinning and boot packing. I am already getting worried about the elevation and being able to keep up. It's around 5500ft where I live/run, but mostly flat. I have to drive someplace if I want to really gain any elevation.

It was nice over the summer to mostly focus on building time and mileage and but not worrying about speed, etc. Without realizing it, I was doing MAF. I had never heard about MAF specifically until a friend of mine when to a workshop this summer. Then she complained to me about the whole thing and how slow she would have to run to keep her heart rate that low etc. She missed the entire point of it being a starting point, but needed to adjust for your own fitness/heart rate etc. Where I've really seen the difference is when doing the shorter runs in town, 5Ks or 10Ks, where I am much faster than I expected. I am still slow though, just not as slow.

I hope to be able to keep up the running through the winter as much as possible. I don't have a treadmill and really dislike running on one. Once the snow comes here, I will be stuck to pavement and not much of it. My plan next spring/summer, is to try to do several 25K trail runs. Since I am not working towards any speed records, I think that I should be able to handle several of them over the summer as long as I don't get injured. I am also going to work on some strength conditioning over the fall and winter too.

[nutmegchoi]

I dropped 2 lines and overwhelmed by the response!


I never had to worry about weight gain or never done diet until mid 30’s.

After 40, I realized I have to watch what I eat which I never had to before.

I love food and I like to drink.

Since my boyfriend works nights (SUN-THURS), Friday and Saturday are our nights to hang out and drink til 4-6am.

9 years later, I’ve gained 30 pounds.

I used to be 125lbs, size 4-6 and my heaviest which was earlier this year was 158lbs size 6-8.

Not be able to run for 1.5 year (left foot injury) didn’t help, either.

I started running again in June from 0 mile, 158lbs.

I tried to lose as much as I can before start pounding some long runs.

I did low carb diet which was hard to do while I was running 4-5 times a week.

After a while, I reintroduced healthier carbs such as wheat, Quinoa, Sweet Potato… etc.

Approaching taper I was eating more carbs even pasta and white rice.

Now I’m pretty much back to protein, vegetable and good carbs.

I still drink, but minimize myself to a beer or two over the weekend and drink vodka soda if I want more.

I learned I needed to find what works for me and change life style that’ll last for lifetime.

Now I eat 3 meals a day and 2 snacks between.

If I really want something, I allow myself to enjoy it and workout harder and longer.

Luckily, I don’t really have sweet tooth (except weakness for ice cream), so that’s a little easier.

I snapped shots at the gym every couple weeks to see progress.

July 21st



September 27th



October 12th



This morning I was 143lbs and I would like to drop another 15lbs.

Boyfriend has no clue.
He says I look the same?
I’m gonna take it as he loves me no matter what and stuck with me when I was the heaviest. lol