Home Remodel: Do, Don'ts, Advice

[fastfred]

Total remodel jong here. Considering having somebody build a sleep loft above the kitchen and bathroom of my 1bd condo (non-load-bearing ceiling and an empty pocket of space above the bathroom; high ceiling above the kitchen). May need some minor electrical and duct work (bathroom vent) but not much. Not sure where I would even start. Do I need a contractor? Thanks for what I expect will be well reasoned and helpful input.

plenty of people (like me) who will show up and throw something together for you, do it cheap as it can be done, and always hope for the best within the next year or so, it's sounds pretty darn easy and not a big deal, go cheap and get her done

or you could find a legit contractor who will rip you off, make you talk to your hoa, get a permit, deal with tons of bs rules, follow codes, and did I mention cost you an arm and a leg

it can be done, just have to be real sneaky about it all

[Foggy_Goggles]

Pretty much what Fred said. Codes can get difficult for "sleeping areas" if you go the full disclosure route, I suggest calling it a "storage loft". I've done a couple very similar projects and the code required an egress window in the roof which got very expensive.

Being that you are in an HOA, keep in mind that you assume a bunch of liability once you fuck with the "common elements" AKA structure. If you post up some pictures, I'll tell you the feasibility and how to do it. I'd be interested in knowing how (if) STS reinforced the roof framing to supposed the point load from the suspended loft.

[Cruiser]

Foggy's a rookie. STS obviously used drywall anchors to attach the loft to the ceiling. No reason to over complicate things with reinforced roof framing and other foolishness. It's just a house, not a module on the international space station.

[RootSkier]

Don't worry, I used eight of these fuckers. ROCK SOLID, baby.



But seriously, if that is a stick built roof with a structural ridge, I have a hard time believing a few kids up there would put any undue stress on the roof system, especially when half of the weight is bearing on the wall.

[HellgateBasement]

Pretty much what Fred said. Codes can get difficult for "sleeping areas" if you go the full disclosure route, I suggest calling it a "storage loft". I've done a couple very similar projects and the code required an egress window in the roof which got very expensive.

Being that you are in an HOA, keep in mind that you assume a bunch of liability once you fuck with the "common elements" AKA structure. If you post up some pictures, I'll tell you the feasibility and how to do it. I'd be interested in knowing how (if) STS reinforced the roof framing to supposed the point load from the suspended loft.

Yeah no possibility of a window or roof access due to where the area is located within the condo. Structurally it's a masonry building that was converted (originally built to house a school). My guess is that sufficient load bearing shouldn't be a problem, but like I said, total jong, so maybe none of that matters.

[Danno]

Yeah no possibility of a window or roof access due to where the area is located within the condo. Structurally it's a masonry building that was converted (originally built to house a school). My guess is that sufficient load bearing shouldn't be a problem, but like I said, total jong, so maybe none of that matters.

One option to start is to go to the local building department and talk to them about your project. Hopefully they can explain what does and doesn't need a permit. The pros here may think this is a terrible idea (and it might be), but the building department here was very helpful. I talked in general terms about the project, they told me what did and didn't need a permit, they explained the process of a GC pulling a permit vs a homeowner pulling a permit, and even gave me some "wink wink nudge nudge" advice about what actually happens on the ground vs the formal requirements.

Once you have that knowledge, you can decide whether you want to pull a permit, hire a GC to pull a permit, or just start building shit.

[Pegleg]

One option to start is to go to the local building department and talk to them about your project. Hopefully they can explain what does and doesn't need a permit. The pros here may think this is a terrible idea (and it might be), but the building department here was very helpful. I talked in general terms about the project, they told me what did and didn't need a permit, they explained the process of a GC pulling a permit vs a homeowner pulling a permit, and even gave me some "wink wink nudge nudge" advice about what actually happens on the ground vs the formal requirements.

Once you have that knowledge, you can decide whether you want to pull a permit, hire a GC to pull a permit, or just start building shit.

Wait, you're saying the Boulder building department was helpful and not complaining about what fascists they are? Are you sure you went to the right place?

[SeatownSlackey]

I'd be interested in knowing how (if) STS reinforced the roof framing to supposed the point load from the suspended loft.

Foggy's a rookie. STS obviously used drywall anchors to attach the loft to the ceiling.

Don't worry, I used eight of these fuckers. ROCK SOLID, baby.

Pftttttt......wall anchors are overkill. just a dab o this on the cable endz and boom, in bidness!!



but for those that wanted to know, mi casa has a hip roof w/ 2x16 rafters. Had attic access for the one side but had a cut a big access hole for the other. Doubled up 2x to make a poor mans 4x to distrib load between two rafters and lagged in. turnbuckles to dial in exact length.

Way, Way overkill especially when it also has 10 lags into the side wall. Even with all the heavy ass mdf the whole thing only sits ~1" below level w/out any support from the cables.

Wife and i have been up there together with both boys numerous times, nada flex or movement. but dont ask me about the ergonomics of getting up there. I designed the dimensions and space for the the ladder i built with only the kiddos in mind and missed just how frequently i would be climbing up there to read books and the like.

[Danno]

Wait, you're saying the Boulder building department was helpful and not complaining about what fascists they are? Are you sure you went to the right place?

Heh, yep. Been there three times, once to get info on permits for bathrooms, once to actually pull that permit, and once to get info on permits for the main level (partly to refresh my memory, partly to see if they told me the same stuff, and partly to ask new questions). Each time they were helpful, told me what the official regulations were and hinted at what the on-the-ground application of those regs were. Only complaint I have was wait time.

[Danno]

Figured I should update with a few photos, the "before" pics are old and not exactly representative of the way it looked before deconstruction, but close enough:

Main living room (entry door is just to the left, stairs are right behind the camera, kitchen to the right on the other side of the wall)


In the middle of the living room, looking at dining area, kitchen is directly behind the wall


In the dining area looking at the kitchen


Living room is behind the wall


New pics

[RootSkier]

You gonna match the popcorn on the new ceiling?

[Danno]

popcorn is all coming down (in fact, it came down yesterday, pics were taken Tuesday)

[Cruiser]

So it's probably safe to assume your crew is going out for Thanksgiving this year, huh? Gonna be really cool when it's done!

[Danno]

you mean they're not going to have it done by next week?

Yeah, we are in a temp rental right now (sucks spending the money but so nice not to have to deal with living there). We're moving back in around New Years but don't expect it to be finished even then.

[Danno]

No real update, they're still putting the house back together. We're probably gonna run out of money in our remodel budget, including our contingency. So that sucks.

I do have one piece of advice though, which maybe the GCs here might not like, but you need to ask questions like a motherfucker about everything, every detail, and then ask some more. Our guy will tell us something and then ask us for a decision, and because he does this stuff for a living, he understands the consequences of the different options, including cost and timing and whatnot. He knows how all the pieces fit together, but he doesn't necessarily think to tell us all that and just asks "what do you want to do about XYZ"; seems like he assumes we know lots more about construction then we do. Then we later get bitched out because our decision (or sometimes our delay in making a decision because we wanted to think about it or research) resulted in cost overruns or delays or whatever, but we weren't told that initially. It's been an eye-opening process for sure.

[MakersTeleMark]

Has anyone ever done a remo under or at budget?

[Danno]

never expected to be under budget. but we had about a 20% contingency and looks like that is getting wasted and then some.

[Foggy_Goggles]

The major drivers of price are changes to the scope of work, either from concealed conditions or customer driven change orders, or changes to to the finish schedule.

My remodels come in at budget all the time. If your GC says, "I had to do X, Y, and Z because you chose A, B, & C" with out going over that prior, your guy sucks.

If the job is T&M and the guy sucks at estimating, that is a discussion. Honestly, most companies pre-construction documents suck for remodels because they have to develop them themselves. You really need to ask yourself what the reasons for the cost overruns are. Are they legitimate increased expenses or sketchy labor upcharges. You also need to consider is it was a competetive bid job.

[concretejungle]

It's going to be the nicest trailer in the hood though.

[Danno]

It is a T&M job. And lots of the cost overruns are concealed conditions (electrical being the big one, and one we weren't surprised about). And a lot of the issues are scheduling things, that choices we made are pushing back the schedule by a week or two because of domino effects, but those are domino effects that the GC seems to think we should have known about, when we had no clue. But some of those scheduling things also implicate costs, as in the delays and changes to the schedule make some parts of the job cost more.

Here's an example, I may not have all the details correct but close (hope he doesn't read TGR!): he told me about a leaky window (that we hadn't asked to be replaced as part of the scope of work), and said it could be fixed or replaced. As that was the sole window in the house that hadn't been replaced recently, I said that we would go ahead and replace it, and I would go to Home Depot and get one (we had previously got another window there for the project, all other windows are newish). He said "they should have it in stock". Well, I went to HD, told the guy what I wanted, and he said "that will be two weeks". Considering that our job had just started and was slated to go for many many weeks more, I ordered it. Seeing as how all the other windows had been replaced 3 years ago without disruption to anything, I had no reason to think this would be a problem.

Well, I then find out that by making him wait for the window, he then has to wait to finish all his drywall work, which means he has to do the painting after the floors are done, which means he needs to spend more time protecting the floors. Or something like that.

Now, I know that the cost of the window and the cost of installing it are my choice, and it's a T&M job so I'm paying for everything regardless, but according to him I should have interpreted "they should have it in stock" to mean "they should have it in stock and if they don't, you better check with me because not having it in my hands immediately will cause delays and cost overruns", and it's my fault for not knowing that. That's what I mean by asking questions about everything. Again, it's a T&M job and we're paying regardless, but I would like to have known so I could make that choice.

[Foggy_Goggles]

From this guys bar stool, it sounds like ya'll don't communicate so well. You didn't call him before you special ordered a window that was probably in stock at some other HD in the metro, and you could have figured that out online? That said, the rest of that sounds like BS. He should be rolling out his final coat after caulking in all the trim etc. and you are going to need to put down floor protection one way or the other. And...it a drywall wrap window, any drywaller worth a shit can knock that out with a couple of batches of hot mud and a spray can of texture. Point being, that shouldn't be an expensive change for someone that knows what they are doing, can think creatively and isn't trying to roll the customer. Now...if you are trying to roll the customer, any change order smells like $$$. I'd probably be able to take more vacations if I was better at this.

[fastfred]

Has anyone ever done a remo under or at budget?

sure most all the time, had a customer five years ago at the signing of the contract take a big black marker on the last page and write NO CHANGE ORDERS, it was pretty funny, they left town and I didn't see them for six months, they showed back up and the whole house was shredded gutted and put back together on budget on time

had other customers completely double the cost of the project, we're not talking hundreds of dollars, more like tens of thousands of dollars, twenty or more change orders

it's all the customer, it aint the doobie I smoke going from job to job

[fastfred]

Danno

as I mentioned before enjoy hearing things from your POV

here is some thoughts

never buy special order or anything for that matter from the big box stores, ie windows.......... but thats just me, plumbing fixtures are full of plastic and are garbage

the contractor is milking it, I do it all the time, ooops the job slowed down cause we had a miscommunication and mis order because YOU ordered or changed that, the job shouldn't slow down because your waiting on the window, foggy set it straight, any drywaller can come in after the fact and take two days and have drywall patched and ready for paint after the window comes in three weeks after drywall

you as the customer should have just sucked it up if your short on money and not done the window project, I know it blows, but deal with it in a year or two, put the money into a nice backsplash and have a bad ass kitchen

T&M is awesome for the contractor but sucky for you. I rarely do T&M work, because it causes problems in the end, like people running out of money, there is no motivation for a contractor when getting paid by the hour cause you are paying it no matter what. There should be a base contract with allowances that will be billed T&M ie electric and plumbing, change orders can be billed hourly or at a set rate, with hidden defects spelled out ie rot behind the kitchen sink

I got a buddy who does everything T&M and he's always got a list of people who owe him thousands of dollars and pay up months later, because he told em 10k for a project and invoiced them for 15k and they needed time to cash in ira's savings etc to come up with the extra 5k they got slapped with.

electric is now the biggest can of worms out there, I try to explain to customers all the time about the basics of electricity in a home and many people call bullshit on me, I don't argue, seeing as how I took lots of electrical classes in highschool I'm authroized to talk intelligently about electric work, it was mostly so I could be in a classroom that was easy to score dope in, but......

Finishing a bid for a kitchen remodel and I put in an $8,000.00 line item for electric work, not including fixtures, why? Do you know how shitty the wiring is in a kitchen pre 1995? not even close to what it needs to be, count how many appliances are plugged in, in any kitchen, blender, toaster, coffee maker, stove, fridge, microwave, on and on, then everyone plugs their computer, phone, tablet, etc in somewhere in the kitchen, the kitchen is the new living room. on half the jobs I look at I spec out panel replacements because alot of the electric panels are shit, too small, not enough breaker space, obsolete, if you have a 1/2 breaker panel from GE dump it, it's garbage

[old goat]

T and M is illegal in CA for anything over $500. Forgive me if I posted this before, but despite that a contractor who submitted a bid down to the penny tried to stick us up for a lot more than the bid, despite no change orders. (The only change was that the temp support steel beam he ordered to hold up the deck while he excavated under it for a garage was too short, so the garage and one door came out 2 feet narrower.) We wound up paying extra for the excavation (there was a contingency for blasting but no blasting done, just a lot of jack hammering) to keep the contractor from pulling off the job with a 12 foot deep hole in the ground. At the end both the GC and the excavator tried to hold us up for more. We refused and they took us to collections. A letter from a lawyer friend took care of that. The contractors' board did nothing when we complained. Said we had to sue and win before they would take any action, despite this guy breaking the law. The guy is out of business.
The next contractor we had, Ron Adams, was great. Win some, lose some.

[mcski]

It's funny that hardly anyone knows this and it's next to impossible to get a contractor not to charge T&M on some projects rather than a bid