"Turn Beacons Off!"?

[Foggy_Goggles]

I friend of mine attended a classroom/field session avalanche awareness class. As it was explained to me, the instructor taught companion rescue as follows:

a. assess further hazard
b. assign leader
c. if leader doesn't select you to participate in the primary search, TURN YOUR BEACON OFF!

I understand the logic, but I don't agree with it. Has anyone else been taught this for companion rescue? In a guide/customer setting where the customer has minimal ability to assist with the rescue, i get it, but to teach it in a class?

[Buster Highmen]

As an end of day public service, sometimes, depending on lubrication, I'll walk the local bar in search mode suggesting that those who provide signals shut off their beacon.

Other than that, it kind of sounds like a dumb idea.

[PNWbrit]

Once skied with a certain notorious un-certified "guide" in Valdez who conducted a beacon check about an hour into a tour. He insisted that only the beacon he was checking (for both function and range) could be turned on. The resulting confusion (mostly his) as to who was turned off, on, beeping or searching led to us taking over and redoing it using a more conventional protocol.

His reasoning for those not being tested being turned fully off was that other beacons being in search mode would suck up the signal and therefore range of the transmitting beacon he was "testing".

The guy was a fucking kook...

[adrenalated]

That is typical practice with many guiding services from what I understand, but should never be taught or used for companion rescue. IMO.

[Name Redacted]

I can see from the point of view that if you have already "Assessed further hazard" and there being no further hazard, you could turn the beacon off. This could help, reduce confusion of some beacons auto-reverting to transmit or someone forgetting to turn theirs off.

That being said, I'll leave mine on.

[klar]

"turn off" is easier than "turn to search and make sure your beacon doesn't have an auto-revert to send function or keep it from doing its thing if it does".

i've heard both versions taught.

[PNWbrit]

Shouldn't any "awareness class" be teaching how to turn beacon to search mode and about auto revert though?

[Name Redacted]

Shouldn't any "awareness class" be teaching how to turn beacon to search mode and about auto revert though?

Awareness classes don't go through the functions of every beacon on the market. It is the beacon owner's responsibility to know how to use it. In theory of course.

[hatchgreenchile]

I can see how this may be an issue in a big group, for smaller parties, I’d say keep ‘em on.

[adrenalated]

Awareness classes don't go through the functions of every beacon on the market. It is the beacon owner's responsibility to know how to use it. In theory of course.

Well, at this point we're getting into the issue of standardized curriculums (or lack thereof) for various avalanche education "levels," especially at the "avalanche awareness" level, but yeah, most awareness courses in my experience generally don't explain the details of every student's individual transceivers to them. In a Level 1 where more time is devoted to companion rescue, I think this is more common.

[PNWbrit]

Awareness classes don't go through the functions of every beacon on the market. It is the beacon owner's responsibility to know how to use it. In theory of course.

I don't really get how you get from that point to.... just turn them off... though?

[Foggy_Goggles]

I just find it irresponsible. I don't think it should be part of companion rescue education. Either teach it or don't. I've lead groups with people who didn't know how to use a beacon. The discussed protocol discussed was turning that person off. Point is, it is part of "how to go out in the BC with someone not educated in using a beacon" not "this is how you use a beacon".

I've helped teach avalanche awareness sessions. Companion Rescue/Beacon Training is a challenge for many people. I just think that understanding a situation where turning someone off if an advanced concept and shouldn't be the default.

Did the guide outfits that had this protocol use a tail guide? The whole "we've got one guide, he's gonna ski first, ya'll don't know shit about companion rescue" always confessed me. It seems to be the norm.

[Name Redacted]

I don't really get how you get from that point to.... just turn them off... though?

Because someone who doesn't know how to use their beacon can do more harm than good.

[Buster Highmen]

Especially if they get caught in a subsequent slide?

Assuming that people are too stupid to handle their transceivers sure is a prick way to teach a class.

[PNWbrit]

can do more harm than good.

That could be equally said of any "avy instructor" who can't simply and quickly explain the concept of auto revert - and suggest students become familiar with that function on their own beacons immediately after the class.. I'd go as far as to say if you can't do that you shouldn't be teaching anybody about avalanches.

I'm in complete agreement with Foggy that teaching "just turn them off" is irresponsible.

[Foggy_Goggles]

The instructor in question is experience and knowledgeable. The type of person I'd trust with my life. He's also a ski guide. I wasn't there. My main issue is that you way create a situation where someone thinks they are qualified to go on a group tour "As long as I'm the one that gets to turn their beacon off". It could have been just a teaching exercise but the way it was presented to me was strange.

[Name Redacted]

There are different levels of avalanche educations. An awareness class can be as informal as a two hour lecture on the danger of avalanches. This might not have a whole lot of time to discuss the intricacies of 30 different beacon models on the market.

Furthermore, as I stated, if the scene is safe, then turning off your beacon is not the end of the world, and can make it easier for the person searching to operate. Having a bunch of people with their beacons on search can cause confusion in a high stress environment. I've seen it happen in a real life situation.

Like I said, I still choose to leave mine in search. It doesn't have a auto-revert, at least I don't set it auto revert. So how is having a beacon in search mode, with no auto revert, any different than turning it off if you are worried about being buried in a slide?

[neck beard]

I can't be bothered with everyone knows better discussions like this is turning into.

So how is having a beacon in search mode, with no auto revert, any different than turning it off if you are worried about being buried in a slide?

Valid question. One situation is that for many beacons switching from search to send is very fast, often just by bumping a switch. I have searched a long but narrow debris field from the bottom up with skins on where quite a few times I instantly bumped my beacon from search to send and stuck it in my pocket when I saw some random person coming down slope above the crown wall or approaching another feeder start zone, or when I was too far from an island of safety. Going from off to send is a longer process.

[Foggy_Goggles]

^^^
Most bc skiers self train to a certain extent. Some of, IMO, the safest people I know have no formal training. There certainly are times where turning off a beacon can be helpful for example multiple burrials, a person/beacon that keeps auto-reverting, or a neophite/paniced individual that is making thinks worse. I'll turn those people off.

My concern is that avalanche rescue should be as simply and purposefully non-confusing. To me, "transcievers>search mode" "physically and audibly check" seems like the better default. The size group that I and most tour with (2-4) has very little margin for people that don't know how to use their beacon.

[Name Redacted]

I can't be bothered with everyone knows better discussions like this is turning into.



Valid question. One situation is that for many beacons switching from search to send is very fast, often just by bumping a switch. I have searched a long but narrow debris field from the bottom up with skins on where quite a few times I instantly bumped my beacon from search to send and stuck it in my pocket when I saw some random person coming down slope above the crown wall or approaching another feeder start zone, or when I was too far from an island of safety. Going from off to send is a longer process.

Tracker2? Yep, it's designed to do that, and I kinda like it. But the new Tracker3 doesn't, I think because they were going for a smaller size.

[Name Redacted]

^^^
Most bc skiers self train to a certain extent. Some of, IMO, the safest people I know have no formal training. There certainly are times where turning off a beacon can be helpful for example multiple burrials, a person/beacon that keeps auto-reverting, or a neophite/paniced individual that is making thinks worse. I'll turn those people off.

My concern is that avalanche rescue should be as simply and purposefully non-confusing. To me, "transcievers>search mode" "physically and audibly check" seems like the better default. The size group that I and most tour with (2-4) has very little margin for people that don't know how to use their beacon.

Sounds like the teacher you were speaking of in the OP was talking about a larger group of people, since you would assume each primary search party would have three people in it, searcher, shoveler, and my personal favorite, prober. So including the leader, that's four. Now if you only have one burial, and it's not ten feet deep, four people might be a more efficient team than the five or more needed for the scenario where someone would be turning off their beacon because they weren't in the primary search party. See what I'm getting at?

[PNWbrit]

Sounds like the teacher you were speaking of in the OP was talking about a larger group of people, since you would assume each primary search party would have three people in it, searcher, shoveler, and my personal favorite, prober. So including the leader, that's four. Now if you only have one burial, and it's not ten feet deep, four people might be a more efficient team than the five or more needed for the scenario where someone would be turning off their beacon because they weren't in the primary search party. See what I'm getting at?

See what I'm getting at?

Working on your basis that this is a short informal awareness class rather than perhaps some quick pre trip briefing like a mellow cat ski operation (with perhaps a as previously mentioned tail guide?) where having clients turn off beacons might be valid? Then that. Seems way more complex and advanced than just saying this.....

"Many beacons will auto revert to transmit mode after a period as a precaution for rescuers caught in secondary slides - you must familiarize yourselves with this mode on your particular beacon immediately after this course."

35 words? And a few seconds of class time.

(maybe even offer photocopied handouts of relevant pages for most current beacons)

[Foggy_Goggles]

Gnar Shedder, I'm not sure if you are just being devils advocate, we have terminology differences or you go about a search differently. Because I'd like to think the Slide Zone is more about learning and less about being a dick, I'm gonna try and work through this. Again, as someone with more practical knowledge and experience than high level training, let me know when you think I'm doing it wrong.

a. in any deposition zone wider than about 20m, it is going to be faster to signal acquisition (primary search) with multiple people searching together in an organized pattern.
b. in your secondary search (signal acquisition to pin point), again multiply searchers can be faster and create redundancy.
c. assuming acceptable levels of hangfire/further hazard, once the pin point has begun I want all hands on deck (probe assembly, shovel team, gear cache management, first aid, go for help, communicate with authorities, etc.).

Under what I consider the most likely scenario of a small/smaller group, no cell service, etc. I'm gonna be using all the people I have, there are no extra humans.

The upside of turning beacons off it that you don't have to worry that you'll be "searching" for somebody that has their beacon inadvertently in transmit. The downside is that if someone has been educated to turn there beacon off, there are a whole lot more thinking that needs to go on about when to turn to receive and when to turn off.

As Brit said, it seems to me that not only is the instructor giving some type of implicit approval to not knowing how to operate your beacon, you end up making it more complicated.

I'm not saying that there is never a situation where "turning off" can be helpful. I was asking how many people have seen this taught and under what scenario.

[totaliboard]

Turning off your beacon minimizes the possibility of false readings from individuals in your party that are too numb to switch from send to receive. The individual that's buried should be the only one with a beacon in send mode.

I think the logic is there, but I don't see a problem with having numerous beacons in receive mode.

[Name Redacted]

Foggy, there are 11 people in your group. One gets buried in a 20m wide area. There is no remaining hang fire or instabilities. You are the leader, how do you manage your team of 9? I'll give you a hint: They don't all search.

I don't think that anyone said that once an avy occurs, everyone turns off their beacon. I think that it was said "c. if leader doesn't select you to participate in the primary search, TURN YOUR BEACON OFF!"

Now I agree, you would probably wait for the leader to ask you to turn it off, rather than just going ahead and doing it. But remember, this comes after "a. assess further hazard"

One person can find a buried beacon pretty fast, 9 people will not find it any faster and it could actually slow down the process, and risk putting all of your eggs in one basket.