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Thread: Digging Pits Article

  1. #1
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    Digging Pits Article

    Thoughts? Or just give it a read. The linked article is by Doug Chabot.

    http://www.mtavalanche.com/sites/def...%20Digging.pdf

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    Objective (in)stability > subjective introspection. I like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    This is kinda like the goose that laid the golden egg, but shittier.

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    I am not a professional but that has allways been my thoughts. About the ECT. My son told me he went to a presentation in Montana where it was said ECT results did not change with slope angle. Anyone want to elaborate?
    off your knees Louie

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    If you could get everyone to just do an ECT and back off if it propagates that would be great. How many people will try and justify skiing the slope even with this evidence of instability?

    It is a great simple idea and practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD View Post
    My son told me he went to a presentation in Montana where it was said ECT results did not change with slope angle. Anyone want to elaborate?
    My understanding of this is that the ECT "measures" the propensity of a weak layer to support fracture propagation. The ability of a weak layer to support fx prop is independent of slope angle. It may be easier to initiate failure on a steeper slope but the propensity for fx prop in that layer remains the same regardless of the slope angle. Anybody feel free to call me out if I'm getting that wrong. I'm not very scientifical.

    Edit: Here's the link to the ISSW paper on ECTs and slope angle http://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-scie...ISSW_O-010.pdf
    Last edited by covert; 01-09-2015 at 09:27 PM.

  6. #6
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    From the article:
    Identifying human-factors in conjunction with gathering relevant data is a winning combination.
    What about terrain? Terrain, snowpack, weather, human factor. The 4-pointed avalanche triangle.

    The author is and always will be a vastly greater avalanche mind and professional than me. No disrespect intended in my above comments.

    How about this as a discussion point - ignoring other factors and simplifying: perhaps it is worthwhile to qualify the value of ECT (and other) stability test results in the context of the current avalanche problem. If you have a reported PWL or DPWL in your area bulletin... perform an ECT and do not ski a slope if it propagates, or pops/drops. And only use stability tests below treeline and cautiously at treeline. The snowpack variability plus the consequences of being wrong in the alpine are too high to rely on any stability test results. Or perhaps negative results (no pop/drop/propagation) in the alpine should be ignored as too uncertain.

    If you have a PWL or DPWL in your area bulletin then signs of instability (including recent avalanche activity) are absent or not obvious. And the article says this, which seems to agree with my thoughts:
    Digging is a reliable and quick way to search for instability when the signs are not obvious.
    I operate in a deep, warm snow regime with a quick velcro-like bonding habit. In my world, digging more often would not save lives. Respecting wind and storm related instability, group spacing in start zones and especially above terrain traps would. Human Factors + terrain use in my mountains play a bigger role than digging and testing. Articles like the one linked should be read in the context of the snow climate that they were written. But does the eager backcountry internet reader know that?

    I really want to to repeat this: The author is and always will be a vastly greater avalanche mind and professional than me. No disrespect intended in my above comments. So please don't go looking for it.
    Life is not lift served.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD View Post
    I am not a professional but that has allways been my thoughts. About the ECT. My son told me he went to a presentation in Montana where it was said ECT results did not change with slope angle. Anyone want to elaborate?
    Karl Birkeland promoted using the ECT at the Eastern Snow and Avalanche Workshop this past Fall because of the results being similar regardless of slope angle. Certainly got my attention.

    Edit: Karl was not saying it had the best correlation, but that the results of the ECT were consistent even as slope angle changed whereas the other pit tests did not show the same consistency.

    Will read the article later tonight when I have a minute.
    Last edited by cat in january; 01-08-2015 at 09:39 PM.

  8. #8
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    if youre discussing pits and no where in the article do the words "spatial variability" appear
    well
    dig more pits
    cause your not gettin it
    bush league at best
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

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    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    I operate in a deep, warm snow regime with a quick velcro-like bonding habit.
    Fair point, especially if the snowpack is like cement deeper down, but in many cases I think they are worth it. See the linked CAIC Loveland video somebody posted. Spooky stuff and that is a shining example of 'well there is your answer'.
    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    This is kinda like the goose that laid the golden egg, but shittier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    if youre discussing pits and no where in the article do the words "spatial variability" appear
    well
    dig more pits
    cause your not gettin it
    bush league at best
    author has most certainly dug more pits than anyone on this forum.
    long live the jahrator

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    gnarhucker tried to dig ur moms pit

  12. #12
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    Digging Pits Article

    Can you ass wipes manage to keep the slide zone forum devoid of pissing matches and other bullshit?

    You can always cross post to the PR but this place is generally free from that.

    As someone who doesn't backcountry ski midwinter it's not usually something I do but it definitely brings a different viewpoint from someone who knows a hell of a lot more than me.

  13. #13
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    Recreational Avalanche training is trending away from digging pits, of any type, because despite Doug's excellent points about why we should dig more pits, it's human nature to come up with rationalizations not to. Emphasizing timing and safe terrain selection is intended to work with what people actually do. Most of the time I'm convinced I know what's going on in what is usually a stable snow-pack, and utilize much faster and simpler methods to test my hypothesis. That said, we're dealing with an unevenly distributed PWL (hoar frost on crust) at the moment, and as I'll be heading into new terrain later this morning, I'll be digging.

  14. #14
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    Snow pits have their place in forecasting.

    For the casual to serious Back-country skier they can provide some window into what the snow is doing.

    If you want to reduce your exposure to avalanche risk all that is required is to reduce slope angle and pay attention to aspect and your travel habits.

    If you want to ski steeper slopes (which is much more exciting) pits won't really help you reduce risk all that much.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  15. #15
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    ^^^ ftw
    i really doubt ya could find many experts that would willfully disregard spatial variability in pit discussions
    but he did manage a 2x pow magazine expert e-suckoff
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  16. #16
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    Meh, Chabot is a good guy, a friend and knows his shit.

    He has a good message:

    Most skiers have already made the decision to ski or not by the time they reached the top of their run,
    but a critical question is still unanswered: what is under our feet? We can guess or we can know.
    Knowledge is a powerful tool and personal responsibility requires due diligence. Introducing the human
    factor into decision making will remain a large part of our avalanche education efforts, but we are now
    pushing people to take one more step and perform an ECT before descending because sometimes the
    snowpack surprises us with her answer. In our classes and videos we teach students how to execute this
    test in under three minutes because we know it can save your life
    I think the takeaway is, Don't rely on stability tests to make a GO decision. Listen to them to make a NO GO decision.

    Or in old school Wasatch speak there is always the , "Why bother with a pit when you are going to ski it anyway".
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  17. #17
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    which is probably why the uac changed from know before you go forcasting of avvy probabilities and facts
    to keeping you on top through trying to lower risk tolerances expert finger waving bloggity blah
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  18. #18
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    Probably so.

    I try to keep in mind my 1st Avi Courses were before TG/ET and back when Depth Hoar was the villain.

    Times change.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  19. #19
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    It's nice when one pit lasts you the whole season.

  20. #20
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    A pit may not alter my decision to ski but it may vary the route of descent significantly.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    ^^^ ftw
    i really doubt ya could find many experts that would willfully disregard spatial variability in pit discussions
    but he did manage a 2x pow magazine expert e-suckoff
    This is the second time that you've mentioned spatial variability. Now you claim that Chabot willfully disregards spatial variability. I think the reason he doesn't mention spatial variability is that this is mostly an op-ed type piece encouraging folks to do a simple, quick test to evaluate instability because the ECT is quicker and less subjective than older snow pit evaluations. If anything, I would think this would encourage people to dig more and perform more ECTs and that addresses the spatial variability. This article didn't seem intended to be an in depth discussion of snow pits in general and the need to consider spatial variability when interpreting the results of your pit.

    Do you have some special insight into the author's mindset when he was writing this article? Do you have an axe to grind? The only thing I didn't care for was the mention of the "Human Factors" piece in Powder. It was anything but riveting, other than that is seemed like a thoughtful article with not a lot of "expert e-suckoff".

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronWright View Post
    I think the reason he doesn't mention spatial variability is that this is mostly an op-ed type piece encouraging folks to do a simple, quick test to evaluate instability because the ECT is quicker and less subjective than older snow pit evaluations.
    Agree with everything you said, but also would add that since that the piece comes from TAR (check the link address), and is therefore directed towards avalanche forecasters, educators, and other professionals, I'm guessing that he didn't feel the need to explain spatial variability to that demographic.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    Agree with everything you said, but also would add that since that the piece comes from TAR (check the link address), and is therefore directed towards avalanche forecasters, educators, and other professionals, I'm guessing that he didn't feel the need to explain spatial variability to that demographic.
    Didn't catch that and it explains a lot. I don't know how much it will change my practice, I live in a weird area between coastal and intermountain snowpacks. Most of the time we're not dealing with PWLs and it's mostly storm snow instabilities but that seems to have changed the last few seasons with a shallower snowpack and wide temperature swings. Last week would have been good for the ECT, 2' of low density snow on a thin layer of surface hoar sitting on bulletproof crust. It was quite sensitive to propagation.

    Now with a very rapid warm up and some rain it is very strongly bridged but will likely be an issue when Spring rolls around.

  24. #24
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    A member of the "avalanche commission" of Hochfügen (resort in Austria) died a couple of days ago in a slide he was caught in while digging a pit - these are the people who decide whether a ski area or a run opens. They were next to a popular traverse which had been skied by dozens of people that day, along with the slope below the traverse. x marks where they were digging, arrow where person was buried, red line is traverse track. This has nothing to do with the article and I have no point I'm trying to make, just came to mind... bit of a "where are our gods now" feeling.

    Ich bitte dich nur, weck mich nicht.

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    Wow, looks like if he was a few feet to skiers' left he'd be alive. That snow fence would have stopped him.

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