Avalanche - Berthoud Pass 1.19.14 - VIDEO Skier hucks into slide with airbag...

[Crampedon]

LOVE Jerry Douglas and anything Alison does.

For the uninitiated….

[Cono Este]

If u filmed yourself pulling out into on comming traffic and got tboned, or low sided your bike in the rain, what kind of idiot would go on tv to talk about it?

[MakersTeleMark]

Jerry and Omar's guide to traveling in avi terrain: Here We Are:

[whipski]

I believe this pretty well sums it up

[Lightspeed82]

Hey guys,
So I thought instead of speculating about everything, you guys should here it from me about the mistakes and decisions I made on Saturday when I triggered this avalanche. Also I will respond to any questions that the TGR community has in as neutral of a viewpoint as I can. The TGR community is 100x more knowledgeable about these sorts of events than the media so I think it's valuable to get your responses rather than the shock and awe of the newscasters. So let's begin.
1) I personally hate the "random chance" quote. Lots of people were asking me questions and the reason those words were uttered out of my mouth is because it was recognized that there were other tracks in the area and that somebody else could have triggered it before me. I am 100% aware that avalanches do not happen by random chance and that the terrain features, snowpack, and particular line that I chose led me to trigger the slide.
2) I am getting a lot of criticism for my statement of "straight-lining" and hucking the cliff right into the slide path. I completely understand where all of you are coming from but I'll try my best to defend myself. I felt the slab break below me and saw the obvious slide path to skier's left two turns into my run. I believe that the avalanche would have been big enough to carry me over the cliff band regardless, so I really wanted to go over it with my feet under me. I dumped speed right before because I got scared, but then made the commitment to go for it (in an incredibly ugly fashion). I feel that I may have avoided this if I would have cut to the right extremely hard and stopped short of the cliff; but at the same time, if the avalanche were to sweep me over the cliff, I would have gone over a much larger, and shallower cliff (you can see to the skier’s right) that I did not want to take that chance. It truly all happened so fast that it was just on instinct and that is what I ended up choosing. Good idea? I'm still not sure.
Here is my (trying to be neutral) opinion of the things I did right and wrong: (please share feedback)
Things we did right:
1) My partner and I never exposed ourselves to the same slope at the same time. He took a mellower line with a few more tracks on the other side of the ridge where this slide ran.
2) My partner and I never went out of communication with one another. We both had radios, and I was at a vantage point to see his entire run. He finished on a small rock-outcropping/hill 60 yards to the skier's left of the debris field at the bottom so that we knew he would be out of harm's way. Also, to the person that was wondering where my "crew" was - that's where he was. He was filming (and I have the footage), but he dropped the camera when he saw the slab break.
3) I definitely did not ignore avalanche warnings but I guarantee more than one person here has been tempted by fresh snow. Although my slope choice was ultimately a catastrophic error, we were very weary of the surrounding terrain and did not even think about getting on any of the bigger terrain around the area. I got fooled into thinking the slope I was on wouldn't break that big.
4) The right equipment: of course all of you guys can say that I am just a dumbass with a full-face and an airbag and that was the only reason I was skiing there. Maybe that is a fair assumption, maybe not. How many people would go backcountry skiing anywhere without a beacon, shovel, or probe? I'm assuming not many would because all of the people on this forum are aware of the inherent risks in the backcountry. So wouldn't just having beacon shovel and probe also persuade a lot of people to get in to backcountry? Just thoughts...
Things we did wrong:
1) We did not dig a pit. Obvious user error. We had both read the local avalanche report and were aware that there was a weak layer somewhere between 140 – 180 cm down as cited in other people’s pit tests in the area. Because of this, we took a risk under the assumption that we would not be putting enough force on the slope to hit a layer that far down. Bad judgment!
2) Didn’t take into account some clear terrain features. We both noticed a convexity that separated mine and my partner’s runs. He avoided it by traversing far to the skier’s left before dropping, and I “assumed” I could avoid it by traversing right at the initial part of my run. I am not sure exactly what obstacle on the slope caused me to trigger the slide so please comment on what you think. Maybe just pure weight? I’m not sure.
3) Picked a slope that had potential for a long slide. I never expected that I would rip a crown at the very top of the 250 yard long slope and it would slide the entire course. Huge error! We purposely avoided slopes much larger than this due to inherent risks but made a very bad judgment call in approaching a slope of this size. Lesson learned.

So a few closing comments. I am NOT a pro skier! I am just a big outdoor enthusiast that loves and respects the mountains. I made a VERY poor judgment decision and I was lucky that it did not result in my demise. Amateurs and pros alike have all been reported to cause avalanches so I don’t see why when Sage and TGR make bad judgment calls and almost die, people just think it was rad? Anyways, I completely realize that I made a bad call, but I wanted to post my experience on here to the community to see what all of you thought. Please don’t get all your information from the media. It was highly publicized because it was in a very well-traveled backcountry area and only 300 yards off the highway going to Winter Park . I am not trying to act cocky about this event at all and definitely learned my lesson. I was bombarded with news crews and cops and a lot of information was mistranslated. The people of the TGR community are some of the top amateurs in the world. If none of you guys ever thought you’d cause an avalanche, then why even carry a beacon? Please use my poor decision making and first person account to help aid you in your future decisions and further your education. Please provide feedback and I will respond to questions as they come. Thanks all and be safe out there!
-Lance Light

[skifishbum]

tldr
but kudos for joining tgr to defend your right to darwinism
you should pm the 420 guy and tell him your radder than the sage
and deserve to be in the next movies
pm rontele too

[suburbs]

You forgot to mention incorrectly listing existing tracks as one of your reasons the line was safe.

[Lightspeed82]

That is partially correct. I honestly didn't see more than just the one set of tracks before I dropped so I did not use that as an assumption that the slope was safe. I brought up that fact because it constantly gets tied back to the "random chance" quote, which I know is inaccurate.

[Lightspeed82]

Please see my post at the end of this thread. Thanks!

-Lance (the dude in the slide)

[summit]

^Thanks for coming here and providing that honest write-up. It shows some good insight. Clearly you know you made mistakes yet you were doing some things right.

4 Questions:

1. Are you familiar with the concept of spatial variability, why it occurs, and how that relates to tracks as a non-indicator of stability?
2. I like pits... but what do you think you might have found in a pit that would have changed your mind?
3. What sort of avalanche education have you and your friend done?
4. Did you discuss areas to avoid on that slope before descending?

4 thoughts:

1. Hard slab is scary because it has a tendency to break off above you, often eliminating or minimizing even small chances of escape.

2. When it comes to terrain choice, if there is considerable (and often even moderate) danger and a known slab problem, choosing rocky/lightly treed steep terrain with cliffs is a huge risk increase: it multiplies the hazard by exposing you to more likely trigger areas and multiplies the consequence through damage multiplying terrain features. Toepfer discusses this concept (I quoted in the original post) as should your Level 1 class. Please ask if clarification is needed.

3. Yes, spur of the moment decisions can lead to hesitation on a plan change. Predetermine your escape routes. This allows instinctual commitment and helps avoid hesitation. Of course, this is the last resort, right? We don't OK routes based on the idea we can escape an avalanche! Further, if your escape route is too sketchy, no tolerance for error, strongly consider whether you should be there at all.

4. Yea, the media can make your words sound very different. The one thing that was quoted right is when you said that you should not have been on that slope on that day. Pick lines within your limits and within nature's limits; these vary daily.

[cyborg]

Well, I applaud the fact that you hopped on here and were mature and are (trying) to have a mature discussion. You'll find that some people make that difficult, and evidently they will be checking this thread just to give you shit.

[DoWork]

Good thing he knew the risks, otherwise he might have been caught and carried over a cliff. Oh, wait....

I rolled my eyes so hard when I read that, I pulled a muscle.



What a fkn beater.

[userA]

Check:

-Beacon
-Shovel
-Probe
-Full-face
-Airbag pack
-GoPro Helmet mount
-Adobe Premiere CS6

Seems like he had all of the right gear to huck ze gnar!

rear facing camera and harness just in case, a la THE GSA, would have completed the package.

bobby

[adrenalated]

2) Didn’t take into account some clear terrain features. We both noticed a convexity that separated mine and my partner’s runs. He avoided it by traversing far to the skier’s left before dropping, and I “assumed” I could avoid it by traversing right at the initial part of my run. I am not sure exactly what obstacle on the slope caused me to trigger the slide so please comment on what you think. Maybe just pure weight? I’m not sure.

First, thank you for sharing.

Sounds as if you are not very familiar with the area?

-There are two major convexities in Nitro Chute and they cannot be avoided. Yes, there are locations where the slope is less convex, but you still have to ski over them no matter what.
-Nitro heavily windloads throughout the season directly on these convexities.
-The forecast for the day specifically warned that Persistant Slab and Deep Persistant Slab avalanches could be easily triggered from thin spots in the slab, such as buried rocks, trees, or bushes, or the margins of the slab.
-There are a variety of rocks and bushes and trees in the start zone that create thinner spots. You likely hit one of these thin spots, or a thin spot at the right edge of the slab. Note all of the small trees in the upper part of the bed surface in your slide:

-keep in mind that you went to one of the most popular and heavily traveled BC areas in the state, multiple days after the last snowfall, and skied a extremely low hanging fruit line within plain view of the parking lot that had almost no tracks on it. Two sets, to be exact (I was on the pass that day). There's a reason that Nitro was virtually untracked and just about everything else in sight was pillaged.

[skiingfiddler]

I appreciate your post explaining your thoughts. It helps to know what you were thinking.

If none of you guys ever thought you’d cause an avalanche, then why even carry a beacon?

1. Beacons and other safety equipment are a last resort for when every single other part of the decision-making process has failed, so you have one last chance at salvaging a possibly fatal situation.
2. Being able to find your friend under a slide doesn't mean you should ski a slope known to be loaded.
3. A nearby group could need help.
4. Ski like you don't have any safety gear, only use it if you have to.
5. Just in case...

I was at Berthoud I believe the day before and there was a lot of tracks on a bunch of questionable slopes. The snow was skiing really great and powder fever was in the air. Because no one in our group was extremely familiar with the area, on our fifth run we did end up on a slope that seemed pretty dangerous, a second pitch that we hadn't known about from the top. We managed it as best we could and skied off feeling like we got away with something...

[bendtheski]

Just for clarification; was a turd dropped at any point during this event?

Glad you survived either way.

[adrenalated]

The CAIC forecast discussion from yesterday is very relevant to this accident:

Doug Chabot, at the Gallatin National Forest Avalanche Center, used a football field and cafeteria tray to describe the potential to trigger a Deep Persistent Slab. I'm going to borrow and build on it.

"...picture a football field." Doug wrote, "Now picture a cafeteria tray tossed onto the field. The field represents an open avalanche slope and the tray represents a weak zone (typically thinner snowpack), the only spot on the football field where you can trigger it. You can ride and ski to your hearts content on that field as long as you don’t hit the tray, which is hidden like a buried mine. If you do, you’ll trigger the entire slope."

Last week, there were many, many cafeteria trays scattered across most steep slopes near and above treeline. Triggering an avalanche was relatively easy. The number of trays has been slowly decreasing, with more and more space in between. Today, it is less likely that you will stumble over a weak spot, but human triggered avalanches remain possible.

The likelihood of avalanches continues to decrease as the trays get further apart. Because the size of the avalanches will not decrease, we are gradually heading towards the classic "low probability, high consequence" situation. Just because you cross the field once or twice doesn't mean it is safe.

[Danno]

More my style, but a good way to direct this thread in a positive direction (I don't think I've ever seen Jerry Douglas so subdued; it must be his airbag/scarf):

I remember hearing Shawn Colvin sing that at my college in 1989, before she had a record deal. Beautiful song.

[Soups]

Lightguy, your post was TL;DR but kudos to coming on and stating your point, whatever it was. We all make mistakes albeit yours had a higher consequence than many others. Hope you learned something from it and glad you're ok. I rolled into the parking lot not 5 min after it happened and it didn't look fun.

[cat in january]

Hey guys,
I felt the slab break below me and saw the obvious slide path to skier's left two turns into my run. I believe that the avalanche would have been big enough to carry me over the cliff band regardless, so I really wanted to go over it with my feet under me. I dumped speed right before because I got scared, but then made the commitment to go for it (in an incredibly ugly fashion).

I made a VERY poor judgment decision and I was lucky that it did not result in my demise.

I am not trying to act cocky about this event at all and definitely learned my lesson.
-Lance Light

I cut out what I thought was some of the fat. For you personally, what lesson have you learned?

[Pegleg]

Jerry and Omar's guide to traveling in avi terrain: Here We Are:

What I took away from this thread: Squareneck dobro Strats exist???!?!?

[Below Zero]

Lance, thanks for posting your thoughts in this thread. Mistakes happen, and I'm glad you are OK.

[leroy jenkins]

Lance, I respect your for posting here in such a mature and humble manner.

Avalanche science can be discussed ad naseum but the one peice of advice I have for you is every time you ski a slope, think to yourself, if its going to slide, where would it slide, and where can I go to stay safe if it slides right there? If it isnt goingto slide in that spot, where else would it slide, and where can I go to be safe if it does slide there? Being aware of, and ready to ski into safe zones, can make the difference between a line being mostly safe and pretty damn safe, and is, in my humble opinion, one of the biggest things most back country skiers fail to do properly. For most people, it seems like once they decide to ski a slope, they then decide to ski it simply in the way that is most fun or appealing.

It seems there was a safe zone on top of that cliff. If I had to guess from the video, you were not mentally prepared to utilize the safe zone, by which I mean you were not expecting it to slide.

In short, you should never ski something you think will slide, but you should ski as if you expect everything you ski to slide. Line choice, coupled with strong skiing ability can effectively make fairly unsafe situations safe. This is the whole idea behind ski cutting into a safe zone, or skiing spines/ridges that avies will fall away from. Presence of safe zones is probably the single biggest factor that affects my line choice in the BC.

I'm not expert either, but understanding line choice and safe zones is probably the most important part of skiing avy terrain I think. Also, most people seem to overestimate safe zones, ether by thinking a slide cant reach them in the runout, or it wont slide big enough to wash them off their safe spot, even though it can.

Glad you're all right.

[whipski]

As a guy who used to drive ambulances and work for ski patrols I can tell you pulling dead ski bumcicles out is very sobering. I'm glad you're alive Napoleon. Keep on rippin and keep it safe.

[Pinner]

I admire your courage coming here to stand by your actions. But now I think it's time for you to sit down and shut up.

You made a mistake in a pretty-easy-to-make-a-mistake zone (which most any noob who has skied Berthoud more than never will tell you is a sucker shot.) You owned up to it and are trying to evaluate and learn from the experience. Great.

What I can't really countenance is your massively undeserved 13-seconds of fame. A less polite individual might label you an attention whore. I myself, will reserve judgement and simply say that if it was me, I'd be wanting to blend into the shadows for the rest of the season and perhaps take an avalanche course quietly, without telling everyone about my fish story.

But hey, I'm a blendy kinda guy. I blend. It's not for everyone, I know.