"Eat Like A Predator, Not Like Prey": Paleo In Six Easy Steps, A Motivational Guide

[Spats]

Hey, Spats, I haven't read the whole thread, but I was burning out pretty hard this season (unfortunately, until this week, working, not skiing) and my girlfriend got me eating a lot more meat. I am feeling better, sleeping better and have noticeably more energy. I'm so glad I have her around to kick me in the ass on things like this. I have hardly eaten meat for the last thirty years. When I went on my last meat binge, I was living on buffalo burgers while running the Battered Beaver in Kirkwood. I lost a lot of weight. I just spent the last eight years losing the wheat from my diet and eating more veggies (and a lot more chai tea). I don't know a thing about the paleo diet, but the increased meat consumption is working well for me.

I'm glad you're feeling better! Going gluten-free, and replacing the calories with fatty meat and fatty fish, is probably the biggest two things you can do off the entire list: maybe we can call that "Paleo Lite" or something.

We've demonized red meat and saturated fat for so long, for so little reason: not only is there no correlation between saturated fat intake and heart disease, there is also no correlation between red meat intake and heart disease!

Circulation. 2010 Jun 1;121(21):2271-83. Epub 2010 May 17.
Red and processed meat consumption and risk of incident coronary heart disease, stroke, and diabetes mellitus: a systematic review and meta-analysis.
Micha R, Wallace SK, Mozaffarian D.
Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA, USA. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20479151

Red meat intake was not associated with CHD (n=4 studies; relative risk per 100-g serving per day=1.00; 95% confidence interval, 0.81 to 1.23; P for heterogeneity=0.36) or diabetes mellitus (n=5; relative risk=1.16; 95% confidence interval, 0.92 to 1.46; P=0.25). Conversely, processed meat intake was associated with 42% higher risk of CHD (n=5; relative risk per 50-g serving per day=1.42; 95% confidence interval, 1.07 to 1.89; P=0.04) and 19% higher risk of diabetes mellitus (n=7; relative risk=1.19; 95% confidence interval, 1.11 to 1.27; P<0.001). Associations were intermediate for total meat intake. Consumption of red and processed meat were not associated with stroke, but only 3 studies evaluated these relationships.

Note that processed meat (e.g. lunchmeat, bacon) is associated with stroke...but since that wasn't further broken down, we don't know what proportion of that was "lunchmeat" and what was bacon. I'm suspicious that cured bacon is a problem, because cruciferous vegetables have far more nitrates than bacon does, and no one who cares about their health eats 'lunchmeat'...but I don't have any data on that one way or the other.

[Spats]

For starters, I've already debunked the notion that phytic acid (the "anti-nutrient") in brown rice is unhealthy when consumed in moderation.

No, you didn't "debunk" anything. All you did is say "No, it's a nutrient", and gave no sources.

So let's look at the sources which claim phytic acid is a nutrient at low doses. This statement is qualified by two footnotes on Wikipedia.

One is this link, which is a for-profit newsletter whose content is hidden behind a paywall. Not a credible source:
http://www.environmentalnutrition.co.../150961-1.html

Another is this link:
http://www.phytochemicals.info/phyto...hytic-acid.php
This website is run by "Top Cultures", a Belgian phytochemical lab that sells tempeh starter and other bacterial cultures. Again, not a credible source.

But let's look at the actual citations they list on some of the auxiliary pages. One is a rat study, which I had to do some work to find since they didn't link any of their citations. Result:
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1222159
"Male Wistar rats were fed sucrose or corn starch diets, supplemented with myo-inositol or IP6 for 12∼ 14 days. Equimolar myo-inositol and IP6 similarly depressed the rises in hepatic levels of lipids and in hepatic activities of lipogenic enzymes due to sucrose feeding. However, dietary myo-inositol and phytate did not prevent orotic acid-induced hepatic lipid accumulation, which is known to be caused by severe inhibition of hepatic lipoprotein secretion."

In other words, if you feed rats a diet of PURE SUCROSE or PURE CORNSTARCH, adding some phytic acid causes them to accumulate lipids in the liver instead of converting them.

This doesn't sound like a health benefit to me. Moral: if someone doesn't link to the study, they've got an ulterior motive, which is that the study probably doesn't support their conclusion.

Second citation:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8383315

This isn't a study at all -- it's pure speculation, that the reason high-fiber diets are correlated with less colon cancer might be because of the action of phytic acid.

But again, it might not.

Most likely it's due to the action of butyrate:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co...roller-of.html
which comprises 3-4% of...wait for it...

BUTTER. Hence the name 'butyrate'.

There are more citations on the "antioxidant" page. Two talk about phytic acid's use as a preservative to increase shelf life. One is an in vitro study that admits "With the vivo study, researchers could not show that phytic acid has any significant effect on liver oxidant or antioxidant status." And one is another in vitro study that admits "it was not observed with intestinal homogenate that superoxide generation was more sensitive to phytic acid compared with the formation of uric acid as observed with XO from butter milk. "

In other words, it's the fucking butter, not the phytic acid. Case closed.

Try actually reading the research before you make confident pronouncements: that's what I do.

[iceman]

This isn't a study at all -- it's pure speculation.

"I came here for an argument."
"No you didn't."

[Spats]

Another example that runs counter to the assertion about the recommendations is "#7: 2-3 servings per day of fats and oils. They recommend "soft margarine, vegetable oil, mayonnaise, salad dressing" -- in other words, TOXIC TRANS FATS" is that the documents calls for reducing trans fats and calls for margarine that contains zero trans fats.

You need to do your research before making false claims. All 'vegetable oils' (actually seed oils) contain trans fats, whether they're shown them on the label or not. They're created by the process of hexane extraction. I cover this here (including citations and links):
Eat More "Heart-Healthy" Trans Fats! (We hid them in plain sight)

There's also the conclusion regarding wheat in the China study and heart disease. Correlation does not mean causation. In China there is something different about regions where people eat wheat that creates an increased risk of heart disease but this does not mean wheat is causing the problem.

Did you even read the article? Out of all the data in the China Study, Minger was unable to find any other variable that was independently correlated with heart disease, no matter how many multivariate analyses she ran.

Original article here:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/09/02/the...disease-oh-my/

Therefore, it is possible that wheat is a proxy for some other variable outside the study -- but it's incumbent on YOU to propose what this factor might be, as I do every single time I cast doubt on an associational study. The data set is open to everyone, and Minger clearly documents her work.

Your serve.

Yet another example of contravening information is the usefulness of carbs in post workout recovery, especially for endurance athletes. Carbs have application that go well beyond just use during exercise.

Not even Robb Wolf advocates carbless PWO in all cases. Here's a remarkably informative article that discusses when you want them and when you don't:
http://robbwolf.com/2009/07/01/post-...h-or-low-carb/

Once again, the OP is aimed at people wanting to lose weight, become more fit, and extend their functional lifespan through optimal health. If you're already <10% BF, in great muscular and aerobic shape, and trying to optimize athletic performance, other options are open to you.

But what percentage of the population is that? Tiny. And I can't cover all the contingencies in one article. I'll write more about the refinements later.

[iceman]

"This is simple contradiction."
"No it isn't."
"Yes it is."
"No it isn't."

[MultiVerse]

"This is simple contradiction."
"No it isn't."
"Yes it is."
"No it isn't."

Bwah... based on word count, spats is kicking ass.

[MultiVerse]

So let's look at the sources which claim phytic acid is a nutrient at low doses. This statement is qualified by two footnotes on Wikipedia.

But let's look at the actual citations they list on some of the auxiliary pages. One is a rat study, which I had to do some work to find since they didn't link any of their citations.

Try actually reading the research before you make confident pronouncements: that's what I do.

Citing Wikipedia and then claiming to be well read on the topic, is classic. Try looking at any of the 2686 results on Pub Med. There are lots of examples like, Evaluation of the expression of metalloproteinases 2 and 9 and their tissue inhibitors in colon cancer cells treated with phytic acid. Some of the articles will show that in high dosages phytic acid leads to mineral deficiencies while others show that phytic acid has the potential to moderate a person’s cancer risk. Either way, there's no question, in terms of chemistry, it is both a chelator and an antioxidant.


I think it’s great that you’re raising awareness surrounding many of the short comings associated with the typical Western diet. It’s simply some of the inaccuracies that I’m questioning.

As for the rest, my position is this: call it Paleo, basic sports nutrition guidelines, or whatever: increasing protein and fat consumption while replacing highly refined carb consumption with carbs from nutrient dense food is a very good thing to do. That way the carbs will come mostly from fruits and vegetables and a moderate amount of unprocessed grains like brown rice and occasional oatmeal etc. all of which will provide plenty of vitamins, minerals and micronutrients. The protein from lean meat also contains moderate amounts of saturated fats, while fish and eggs contain lots of healthy omega-3 fats, add to the mix healthy monounsaturated fats from olive oil etc. and your performance will increase while your heart risk will decrease.

[iceman]

If the revolution doesn't have tender flaky croissants and hearty crusty sourdough I'm not joining.

[MultiVerse]

Viva la revolucion!

You need to do your research before making false claims. All 'vegetable oils' (actually seed oils) contain trans fats, whether they're shown them on the label or not.

This type of argument is a bore because where's the false claim? The only claim made is that "the documents calls for reducing trans fats and calls for margarine that contains zero trans fats." Keep in mind that these are guidelines not commandments and I'm not lobbying for the position of Mosses. I don't use vegetable oils and I support the reduction and/or elimination of their use.

[splat]

I bought 1/8 of a free range cow recently from a friend's farm.

I just found a place where I can buy a buffalo. Or parts of one.
His new home will be on the range alright.
Pemmican for the zombie apocalypse!

[bagtagley]

I'm suspicious that cured bacon is a problem, because cruciferous vegetables have far more nitrates than bacon does, and no one who cares about their health eats 'lunchmeat'...but I don't have any data on that one way or the other.

Spats, I was under the impression that Nitrosamines were a bigger problem than nitrates. The issue being, the higher cooking temperatures of bacon are more conducive to Nitrosamine formation than the relatively low temps at which veggies are cooked (or not cooked at all).

Can you make some more specific recommendations for sugar intake for hard/extended efforts? What types of food should I be packing in the Camelback for long days in the saddle?

[jayfrizzo]

This is a great thread. I've been reading about Paleo and kinda following it. I do like eggs and mean and veggies way more than grains, but I also like Ice Cream and whiskey and cheese. And with 2 kids and a wife who only kinda believes in it it's hard to go whole hog.

Anyhoo, nothing to contribute. Just wanted to thank Spats for all the info, thanks to everyone for challenging and offering conflicting info/opinions, and again to spats for keeping this thread going. Guess all that fat has given you a ton of enerty (though you had a shitload before...I can't imagine you more energetic than back in SLC).


J-

[hafilax]

http://www.gnolls.org/1240/eat-more-...n-plain-sight/

Like most Paleo blog overviews of scientific papers this one draws absolutely preposterous conclusions from reasonable data. Fine, if 2% of your total calories comes from trans fats your odds of getting heart disease double. Great but that's a relative figure. What are your chances of getting heart disease to begin with? OK 30% so trans fats can bump you to 60% which is a significant figure but it should be stated in the discussion.

The big leap of logic is noting that canola is 2% trans fat and then jumping to the conclusion that eating canola will double your chances of getting heart disease which is patently false unless you get 100% of your calories from canola oil.

The hexane thing is pure scare tactics as well. Volatile solvents tend to evaporate completely. Show me that there is hexane in vegetable oil. Don't just say hexane=death therefor canola does as well. It's ridiculous.

Yes canola has trans fats, comes from a GM version of rapeseed and there are far better choices out there but it isn't going to fucking kill you IN MODERATION.

[Dantheman]

the documents calls for reducing trans fats and calls for margarine that contains zero trans fats

There is no such thing as non-trans fat margarine.

Spats, I was under the impression that Nitrosamines were a bigger problem than nitrates. The issue being, the higher cooking temperatures of bacon are more conducive to Nitrosamine formation than the relatively low temps at which veggies are cooked (or not cooked at all).

Nitrosamines are the issue, as they have been shown to be carcinogenic. From what I understand though it's not high heat that creates them, they form when nitrates/nitrites are combined with protein and strong acids (i.e. a belly full of bacon). Ascorbic and citric acids are potent inhibitors of nitrosamine formation though, so have some fresh fruit or veggies or a small glass of OJ with your bacon and you probably have nothing to worry about.

How do all of you feel about the factory farms and CAFO's (confined/concentrated area feeding operation) that produce all this meat and eggs? It would be one thing if you got your eggs from your own chickens or from a local free range chicken farmer, but those mass produced eggs at the mega mart are being manufactured by abusing animals and cramming them into confined spaces. Same with all the meat....do you get your meat from hunting or free range sources or from feed-lot sources? All those hormones they pump into the animals to make the eggs larger and cows larger are all being concentrated in you if you follow this diet. Please note I do relish eating meat and eggs, but I only get my meat (lamb from Belgrade and beef/eggs from Pony, MT) very locally.

If I could afford it (or had the space for a big chest freezer) I would buy all my meat free range/grass fed. Right now I do end up with mostly CAFO meat though. I still think it's healthier than eating a high-grain diet (ex. in the meta-analysis Spats linked to that found no association between red meat intake and CVD, I guarantee those people were eating mostly CAFO meat and not grass fed beef and wild game). Besides, something needs to eat all the subsidized grains that we massively overproduce (there should be w inky here, but for some reason it's not showing up)

[bagtagley]

Nitrosamines are the issue, as they have been shown to be carcinogenic. From what I understand though it's not high heat that creates them, they form when nitrates/nitrites are combined with protein and strong acids (i.e. a belly full of bacon). Ascorbic and citric acids are potent inhibitors of nitrosamine formation though, so have some fresh fruit or veggies or a small glass of OJ with your bacon and you probably have nothing to worry about.

I thought it was sort of twofold, but I should stop because I'm already talking out of my ass. I'll eat anything called bacon, but it's easy to avoid added nitrates since most of the local producers don't use it in their bacon, and their stuff blows the pants off the store-bought stuff. There's a guy that sells raw pork belly strips. With a little salt sprinkled on before cooking, I actually prefer it to bacon.

What are your thoughts on this, Dan?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/81612.php

If I could afford it (or had the space for a big chest freezer) I would buy all my meat free range/grass fed. Right now I do end up with mostly CAFO meat though. I still think it's healthier than eating a high-grain diet (ex. in the meta-analysis Spats linked to that found no association between red meat intake and CVD, I guarantee those people were eating mostly CAFO meat and not grass fed beef and wild game). Besides, something needs to eat all the subsidized grains that we massively overproduce

We've had to do some major budget shifting, but we've gotten pretty good about buying meat locally, particularly beef. There are just so many options here, it's hard not to take advantage. We've been squirreling money away since last year, and have a small savings built up we're gonna use for a CSA and a 1/4 cow in the spring. I'm hoping that not having to buy that stuff for a few months will allow us to save for next year...and so on.

As for eggs, I just suck it up and pay the exorbitant rate for pastured chicken eggs. The difference is staggering...even the organic store-bought eggs pale in comparison (literally and figuratively).

[Captain Awesome]

There's a guy that sells raw pork belly strips. With a little salt sprinkled on before cooking, I actually prefer it to bacon.

How thinly are they sliced? Are they smoked or anything?

[bagtagley]

How thinly are they sliced? Are they smoked or anything?

It's basically thick-cut bacon, only no curing and no smoke. I was skeptical myself, but took the guys advice with the salt and cooking temp, and the shit is good.

[BurnHard]

It's basically thick-cut bacon, only no curing and no smoke. I was skeptical myself, but took the guys advice with the salt and cooking temp, and the shit is good.

Sounds very similar to certain varieties of Pancetta in Italy and Speck in Germany & Northern Italy... so. fucking. good!

[Dantheman]

What are your thoughts on this, Dan?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/81612.php

First I have heard of that. I wonder if if anyone has tried to replicate their results. I would also to be very curious to know exactly how they "replicated the conditions of the proximal stomach". I strongly agree with the footnote too.

[MultiVerse]

There is no such thing as non-trans fat margarine.

True. And butter is much healthier than margarine so there's really no reason to eat margarine or any foods that contain trans fat, if at all possible. That's where the guidelines get it right, "Keep trans fatty acid consumption as low as possible by limiting foods that contain synthetic sources of trans fats, such as partially hydrogenated oils, and by limiting other solid fats."

Maybe this requires translation, maybe not, but I think a reasonable person should interpret the phrase "foods to reduce" as a euphemism for eliminating added sodium, unnatural solid fats and added sugars etc. If the point spats is trying to make is that the government isn't going far enough, fast enough with their recommendations then sure, that's fine. My point is that they are not, in fact, recommending a high added sugar, high processed carb diet and I don't think people who are consciences about what they eat look to government for answers anyway.

In the table spats referenced*, for example, a serving size is: 1 tsp soft, margarine, 1 tsp vegetable oil, 1 Tbsp mayonnaise, 1 Tbsp salad dressing with between 2-3 servings per day (unless you are consuming more than 3100cal) in a low sodium diet (page 83 in the link). Zero teaspoons is ideal of course but compared to the way many people eat now 1-2 teaspoons is a big improvement.


*Edit to add: Spats is referencing an appendix for the Dash Eating Plan, a low sodium diet for people with existing hypertension, they are not recommending margarine for average consumers but instead are cautioning against it.

[Mofro261]

"This is simple contradiction."
"No it isn't."
"Yes it is."
"No it isn't."

FTW.

Science= peer reviewed submission to established journals.
Pseudo science= blog posts and internet chat forums.

[Platinum Pete]

Thinking about alternatives to vegetable oil (and olive oil, because I like variety), what do you guys think about cocnut oil, macadamia nut oil, and ghee (clarified butter)? What about lard (seems like getting this from a grass/pasture fed animal with no antibiotics or other tinkering would be best)? Anybody trying these out and have opinions on how they cook up and treat your body?

[hafilax]

Coconut oil and olive oil are the most widely recommended plant based oils for cooking because they have high smoke temperatures and are most stable. I've found that coconut oil adds very little flavour whereas olive oil can add a lot depending on the oil.

Butter and lard are good as well although I haven't used lard other than frying things in left over bacon fat. Butter and especially clarified butter have very little left of what most people are sensitive to much like whey isolate (so I'm told).

I made mayonnaise with crappy Costco olive oil and it tasted like shit. It had a nasty, woody olive aftertaste that I tried to kill with mustard and lemon juice. I think you need a nicer olive oil for it to come out well.

[Dantheman]

Thinking about alternatives to vegetable oil (and olive oil, because I like variety), what do you guys think about cocnut oil, macadamia nut oil, and ghee (clarified butter)? What about lard (seems like getting this from a grass/pasture fed animal with no antibiotics or other tinkering would be best)? Anybody trying these out and have opinions on how they cook up and treat your body?

Everything you listed = manna from heaven. Don't forget beef tallow.

[Platinum Pete]

Everything you listed = manna from heaven. Don't forget beef tallow.

Awesome to hear. Do you mean that in regards to taste or healthfulness?

Also, any suggestions on the best sources for lard and tallow? I imagine the lard I see in the case at Safeway is from a hog raised on meds and corn, which seems particularly bad given most mammals propensity to store chemicals in their fat.