GUNS!!!!!!!!

[Helldawg]

Hey - anybody here cast their own lead? I'm thinking of doing this for .44 mag loads. How much of a pain in the ass is it? What's the initial $$? I go through maybe 300-400 rounds of .44 mag per year, but I have been shooting the Dan more lately. This'd be primarily for metallc silhouette.

^^^You really don't need much to get started, just a melting pot, a decent multi-cavity mould, some flux, a pourer, and a shitload of the right lead. Wheel weights are good, and if the tire shops are no help, try the scrap yard.

Casting outside is a good idea, but indoors is fine with active ventilation.

One huge caution, do not let any moisture into your molten lead (a drip of water from an overhead pipe, or a bead of sweat off your nose...) It can create quite a violent little explosion that would shower you with a bit of nastiness.

I cast for my muzzleloader back when NY still only allowed round ball ammo. Now I use jacketed pistol bullets in a plastic sabot, so not too much casting anymore.

[khakis]

So I got this idea: I'm jealous of TNKen's long-distance collection but I'm po'
If I went to a good gunsmith and dropped off a long-action mauser, bull barrel chambered in .308, and synthetic stock, could he make a decent 1000 yard rifle out of it? Or am I better off just buying a 700 varmint, trigger kit and scope? Edit: or a t3 super varmint!

[Helldawg]

^^^Unless you are a real military arms buff, or are really in love with the Mauser, I'd opt for basing it off a 700 action.

Or just buy a Savage with an Accu-trigger, and start punching cloverleaves.

[bushman]

Seein the 1911's kinda gives me a chubby, 15 years of sqeezin match ammo at turnin targets at Camp Perry, and Fort Smith Ark, brings me back. Nothin like the Patton Match for pounding them down range quick. Those were the days.

[Jer]

For long range on a budget I'd do something like this: Rem 700 entry level.


But I'd probably put the Burris XTR 3-12 on it instead. And I'd put the 9"-13" Harris bipod on there instead of the little stubby one. The BR model is good for shooting off a bench or in the ideal prone position, but having more adjustment is nice in the real not-so-ideal world.

edit: Actually (and I hate to keep talking about the Swiss K 31, but) you could pick up a Swiss K-31 for $200-$275, a decent 12x scope for maybe $500 - $600 get a scope mount that fits the K 31 (I know they're out there) and I'll bet that would be a pretty decent rifle for 1000 meters. 7.5 x 55 is basically a slightly hotter .308. GP 11 uses a 174gr. bullet that I'm pretty sure stays supersonic to close to 1000 meters. I can ring a 12" steel plate at 600 meters with my dead stock iron sighted K 31 and I kinda suck with non-scoped rifles. Actually, I thought I sucked until I picked up the K 31 a month ago.

[khakis]

dammit jer I keep trying to convince myself that I don't need any more old-ass rifles but then you keep raving about that stupid k-31! I want to buy one anyway just for the sexy bayonet, but now you're telling me it's accurate too? Grrrr....

[TNKen]

If you are looking at old military rifles, look at the 03-A3 bolt action.

Beware on old military rifles, most were around for a long while and had LOTS of rounds down the barrel. Causing the possiblity of throat erosion. Also remember that for many of those old rifles, the ammo was corrosive, and tons of that corrosive stuff still floats around. Most individuals don't clean old guns like they required them to do in the military. If old Uncle Fred bought an old military rifle, took it out and ran a few rounds through it, then stuck it in the closet, and the ammo was berdan primed corrosive, after a few weeks, the gun may be toast.

Point being, there are some great old guns floating around out there that are very accurate. Mauser actions are some of the finest. But if you are buying sight unseen, it's a crap shoot to see if you you get a grade 1 or a beater. And gun dealers are first cousins to used car salesmen. Beware.

Ken

[Pow4Brains]

[khakis]

If you are looking at old military rifles, look at the 03-A3 bolt action.

Beware on old military rifles, most were around for a long while and had LOTS of rounds down the barrel. Causing the possiblity of throat erosion. Also remember that for many of those old rifles, the ammo was corrosive, and tons of that corrosive stuff still floats around. Most individuals don't clean old guns like they required them to do in the military. If old Uncle Fred bought an old military rifle, took it out and ran a few rounds through it, then stuck it in the closet, and the ammo was berdan primed corrosive, after a few weeks, the gun may be toast.

Point being, there are some great old guns floating around out there that are very accurate. Mauser actions are some of the finest. But if you are buying sight unseen, it's a crap shoot to see if you you get a grade 1 or a beater. And gun dealers are first cousins to used car salesmen. Beware.

Ken

Cool thanks for all the info. I was thinking more along the lines of picking up a k98 from classicarms...I get the impression that they buy all their stuff from Century, who gets them in straight-out-of-storage from surplus, where they were serviceman-cleaned then dunked in cosmo. My mosin-nagant from Century definitely didn't have any corrosion issues.

[TNKen]

Cool thanks for all the info. I was thinking more along the lines of picking up a k98 from classicarms...I get the impression that they buy all their stuff from Century, who gets them in straight-out-of-storage from surplus, where they were serviceman-cleaned then dunked in cosmo. My mosin-nagant from Century definitely didn't have any corrosion issues.

And all I have ever received from Century or SOG has been junk. Glad to hear you have had better luck than I!!

Ken

[khakis]

that's interesting...I thought pretty much all the surplus arms resellers got their inventory from century? I pick and pulled my 91/30 from a stack of 8 or so that the shop had (all from century), but none of them was in really poor condition.

edit: after typing that it occurred to me that my standards are probably a lot different from yours when it comes to firearms...hehe...maybe my mosin is junk, like even more so than when it was first issued

[Jer]

Century is hit or miss (with a lot of miss). I would never buy any used firearm sight unseen.

[leroy jenkins]

I would maybe buy a surplus gun that century had either imported, or bought assembled, if it looked decent, but I would not even think about buying anything they had in any way put together or "made" or even modified.


Also, desert last two evenings + sig 556 + clay pigeons at 200-400 yards = holy shit, I'm amazed.





I'm having fun with the sig, but I think before too long I'm going to want something to reach out a little farther. I have a fn spr in 308 with a 24" barrel sitting around not getting shot because it doesn't have a stock or an optic, I don't have much in the way of funds right now, but I think it may be time to start thinking about building it up. Should be an awesome 1000 yard setup.

[TNKen]

Speaking of long-shots. New record sniper kill with an Accuracy International .338 Lapua Magnum

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7113916.ece

Hotshot sniper in one-and-a-half mile double kill
Michael Smith A BRITISH Army sniper has set a new sharpshooting distance record by killing two Taliban machinegunners in Afghanistan from more than a mile away.

Craig Harrison, a member of the Household Cavalry, killed the insurgents with consecutive shots — even though they were 3,000ft beyond the most effective range of his rifle.

“The first round hit a machinegunner in the stomach and killed him outright,” said Harrison, a Corporal of Horse. “He went straight down and didn’t move.

“The second insurgent grabbed the weapon and turned as my second shot hit him in the side. He went down, too. They were both dead.”

The shooting — which took place while Harrison’s colleagues came under attack — was at such extreme range that the 8.59mm bullets took almost three seconds to reach their target after leaving the barrel of the rifle at almost three times the speed of sound.

The distance to Harrison’s two targets was measured by a GPS system at 8,120ft, or 1.54 miles. The previous record for a sniper kill is 7,972ft, set by a Canadian soldier who shot dead an Al-Qaeda gunman in March 2002.

In a remarkable tour of duty, Harrison cheated death a few weeks later when a Taliban bullet pierced his helmet but was deflected away from his skull. He later broke both arms when his army vehicle was hit by a roadside bomb.

Harrison was sent back to the UK for treatment, but insisted on returning to the front line after making a full recovery.

“I was lucky that my physical fitness levels were very high before my arms were fractured and after six weeks in plaster I was still in pretty good shape,” he said. “It hasn’t affected my ability as a sniper.”

Harrison, from Gloucestershire, was reunited in Britain with his wife Tanya and daughter Dani, 16, last month. Recalling his shooting prowess in Helmand province, he said: “It was just unlucky for the Taliban that conditions were so good and we could see them so clearly.”

Harrison and his colleagues were in open-topped Jackal 4x4 vehicles providing cover for an Afghan national army patrol south of Musa Qala in November last year. When the Afghan soldiers and Harrison’s troop commander came under enemy fire, the sniper, whose vehicle was further back on a ridge, trained his sights on a Taliban compound in the distance. His L115A3 long-range rifle, the army’s most powerful sniper weapon, is designed to be effective at up to 4,921ft and supposedly capable of only “harassing fire” beyond that range.

“We saw two insurgents running through its courtyard, one in a black dishdasha, one in green,” he said. “They came forward carrying a PKM machinegun, set it up and opened fire on the commander’s wagon.

“Conditions were perfect, no wind, mild weather, clear visibility. I rested the bipod of my weapon on a compound wall and aimed for the gunner firing the machinegun.

“The driver of my Jackal, Trooper Cliff O’Farrell, spotted for me, providing all the information needed for the shot, which was at the extreme range of the weapon.”

Harrison killed one machinegunner with his first attempt and felled the other with his next shot. He then let off a final round to knock the enemy weapon out of action.

Harrison discovered that he had set a new record only on his return to UK barracks nine days ago. The previous record was held by Corporal Rob Furlong, of Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, who was using a 12.7mm McMillan TAC-50 rifle.

Tom Irwin, a director of Accuracy International, the British manufacturer of the L115A3 rifle, said: “It is still fairly accurate beyond 4,921ft, but at that distance luck plays as much of a part as anything.”

News of Harrison’s success comes amid concern over a rival insurgent sharpshooter who in a five-month spree has killed up to seven British soldiers, including a sniper, in and around the Taliban stronghold of Sangin.

In a later incident during the tour, Harrison’s patrol vehicle was hit 36 times during a Taliban ambush. “One round hit my helmet behind the right ear and came out of the top,” he said. “Two more rounds went through the strap across my chest. We were all very, very lucky not to get hurt.”

[khakis]

que chingon!

[Jer]

The previous record was held by Corporal Rob Furlong, of Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, who was using a 12.7mm McMillan TAC-50 rifle.

Not to mention that Furlong had two sighting shots.


My Yugo AK is a modified/assembled Century gun, but I got to check it out thoroughly before buying it. Never had any problems with it.

[Helldawg]

^^^I'm a bit dubious about the sniper story...

3 for 3 at a mile and a half??? 2 Tangoes and a MG down?

I mean, I know the weapon is accurate, but lets think about it:

1.54 mi.= 2710 yards. 27 football fields, plus an extra end zone or so for you sports fans...

Now lets look at 2 factors. M.O.A. accuracy, and the current 1,000 yard world record.

M.O.A. (Minute of angle) refers to a rifles potential accuracy. If your rifle shoots m.o.a., that means all variables aside, it can shoot a 1.04" group at 100 yards. The better factory hunting and varmint rifles will produce this or slightly better.

Only high end and custom riflesmiths will guarantee accuracy of 1/2 m.o.a.

Benchrest shooters and other zealots can tweak their rifles and loads to achieve .25" groups, or the elusive "one-holer".

All that being said, I would approximate that the average military snipers service weapon would be capable of something in the 1/2 to one m.o.a. range. They do not have the luxury of tweaking their ammo, because N.A.T.O. requires that certain mil-spec fmj ammo be used. Yes, there is match grade, but it is still mass produced, mil-spec ammo.

So let's split the difference, and assume .75 m.o.a., which at 2710 yards would equal about a 20" group. Mind you, this is in a vacuum, and devoid of all other environmental variables. The average american mans' torso is about 18" wide facing dead on. Less than 10" sideways.

So that means our boy defied all odds and put the first 2 shots, from a cold barrel, under battlefield conditions, into about a 14" group, at 2710 yards.

So let's talk about the worlds best rifle groups. There is a current 1,000 yard group of 1.4" This is insane, and considered by many an anomaly. The average top 1,000 yard group for the last decade or so has hovered in the 4" range. So even if you use 3" as the 1,000 yard benchmark, that translates into about an 8" group at 2710 yds.

Now remember, benchrest shooters are afforded all sorts of luxuries that are not applicable in the battlefield. A comfy seat, a 35# rifle, custom handloads, wind flags every hundred yards, a stationary target, ample time, 1 oz. triggers, practice shots, etc., etc., etc.

So while ostensibly "possible", this level of shooting in combat would defy all the laws of gravity, nature, and logic.

Therefore, in conclusion, I call bullshit.

No, but seriously, if it really went down like that, then hopefully my claims above put the shots into better perspective to allow for how truly amazing they would have had to be.

[Jer]

I think it's for real. I also think the guy should have immediately bought a Powerball lottery ticket. The one variable I've never seen on even the most detailed ballistics charts is luck.

[waxman]

the one anomaly that i can see is they are saying 3 seconds from trigger pull to hit

ballistically the 338 lapua at that distance would take 5+ seconds...given most reporters gun knowledge they probably reported it wrong....

the other thing that is coming up on some the "gun" boards is that given Furlongs "special treatment" by the CDN government after his and his teams performance supporting NATO troops in the early stages of the Afghan "war" the Canadians have quit reporting the distances of their "kills" so they don't get "Furlonged"....

[HotCarl]

Just bought my first gun ever today. Sig Mosquito. I know,sounds intimidating. Fuckoff,its my first gun.....

[TNKen]

Great choice. Should have gotten an extended threaded barrel for a suppressor!!!

Ken

[Viva]

^^^How much water does it hold?

Just kidding. Enjoy!

[leroy jenkins]

Carl, not sure whats supposed to be less than manly about buying a 22 as a first gun, its the smartest, cheapest, and fastest way to learn what you're doing. If you're one of the people that just wants to own a gun because its badass and makes a lot of noise, you should get something else, but if you want to learn to actually shoot, wise choice.

I was going to post this anyways, but it kind of proves my point. After one summer of regular practice with a 22 rifle at 50-100 yards (about 10k rounds total) I was able to start shooting my sig 556 accurately basically as soon as I put a scope on it. Within a few times of shooting it with the new scope and i was doing this:

Clay pigeons at over 300 yards. 20 clays, not many misses.





It was kind of windy, gusting, and changing direction. I waited patiently for my shots, but I think I can probably still hit the 4" clays out a lot further on a calm day.

[Helldawg]

A brick of .22 lr is one of the best shooting instructors you'll ever meet.

[Jer]

A brick of .22 lr is one of the best shooting instructors you'll ever meet.

Actually, a whole shitload of any ammo works great, although .22 is usually the most cost effective.

Shooting is just like pretty much everything else - the more you do it, the better you get.

Last year I plotted a ballistic chart for my 10/22 with CCI green tag sub-sonic ammo from 20 to 200 meters. Out past about 75 meters the trajectory drops dramatically - to the point where you really have to adjust every five meters. When I was plotting the chart I used my lazer range finder and I was still getting about 1.5 MOA groups (ok - more like between 1.5 and 2) out to 200 meters, so the rifle and the ammo are capable. The real challenge is leaving the ranger in the truck and estimating the range. I have a mil reticle on the scope on my .22, but I can tell you that milling doesn't do much when you're doing it in 5 meter increments. This kind of excersize doesn't help much with range estimation at much longer distances with high-powered rifles, but it is very challenging.