At least 3 dead, 15 injured after B.C. avalanche

[powhore]

Tell you guys what, the next time there's a thread about a guy or two that die in the bc on skis or a board, I'm gonna talk to all my sledder buddies & tell them to come on here & talk about how ignorant the stoner skier culture is.
We'll talk about how ALL the skiers are too dumb to pay attention to signs before they leave the resort & kill themselves, and how ALL skiers are too stupid to buy all the gear that could save their lives.

Me thinks there was enough of that crap last week. There is much more class in this thread, so don't be so butt hurt over every remark.

People should be called out for their stupidity.

[bridgersurfer]

Jong here. Who picks up the tab for rescue ops in British Columbia.

[powder11]

Jong here. Who picks up the tab for rescue ops in British Columbia.

it's Canada... everybody shares!

[TeCeBe]

An earlier post talks about how last year they had safety, etc. This was not some random, spontaneous gathering.

I concur that this wasn't spontaneous and random. That is obvious. But posters made up by a guy who goes by Ozone Dave hardly makes it organized.

VP Racing Fuels, a Yamaha dealer and some local lodging get there name on poster and the CAC becomes redundant?

[Cross]

Mr. Knox said, however, that he wasn't told about the conditions

This sums up one of the biggest problems.
If you are going into the backcountry it is up to you to find out what conditions are. You are not going to get a phone call in the morning before you leave telling you what conditions are.

This incident is the perfect example of group dynamics that are discussed in avy classes. This event was scheduled so the riders were going out no matter what, God was not going to ruin the event. The less informed assumed since others were going out it was safe and followed. If someone questioned the conditions then saw 30 other people head out they might second guess themselves and follow everyone.

Who ever organized this event should have paid a little more attention to the conditions and saved a couple lives. It may not have been sanctioned but it was definitely organized.

[john c]

Sledding attracts SOME that have a very different attitude. There's is based on a domination submission paradigm. They take this attitude to the mountains and get stung at a very high rate.

You can see this attitude by how they drive their massive trucks over the pass, how they have their chests puffed out at the gas station, and yes how they attempt to conquer avalanche ridden mountains. They want to stick 900 cc's of power between there legs, 450 hp under their hood, and a 280 on their shoulder and make either the road, the mountain, or that elk submit to their manliness and power. Well guess the fuck what? That elk will drop, other drivers will swerve, but the mountain doesn't submit to their will. Before everyone atacks notice how I said and capatalized SOME.

[backcountryislife]

People should be called out for their stupidity.

That is exactly what happened last week. The ONE person was called out for the stupidity that cost him his life.

Here on the other hand constant over generalizations claim that ALL sledders are clueless & careless.

How exactly you can claim that THAT was classless but THIS is ok...?

that's fucked up.

[newguy]

Lots of generalizing about ALL sledders are... and ALL skiers.... etc. only adds fuel to endless useless debate.
Ditto to bcislife:Each person decides for themself about what to do or not do. What is endlessly fascinating however to me is the groupthink that must have taken over at that event.
There were lots of press quotes about people who decided for themselves to stay away from the event altogether, and if I read right, some people decided for themselves to stay out from under that slide path and watched from a safer position. Good on you.
But despite the very clear public bulletins plus all the avy training etc that folks are professing they have taken, some obviously thought they knew better. I say Good on you too, as long as you are making your own decision. That's the risk and reward of being in the bc.
Trouble was, and I am just speculating here, these individuals then sled up Turbo or move into the runout zone for a better view, which I am guessing caused a few more to assume it was safe, until... "If that many people think it's okay to be there, it must be okay."
duh.
Big lesson in all this. Just because one person or two hundred think it's good to go, doesn't mean you should leave your decisionmaking in their collective hands. Think for yourself. If the slope hadn't ripped out and you had a shitty view, or a great ride up into that obvious start zone, at least you can say it was your decision.
However, I bet there are a lot of people reflecting after this mess that they abdicated their decision to others. And in this particular case, that would probably leave you feeling like an idiot after the fact.
Final thought. I didn't say it was easy making up your own mind as to whether to stay home or step out into the bigs. People influence others all the time. People you trust will affect your call. But you might want to check with yourself - "Does this make sense with me? Does this feel right?"
final, final: vibes to victims and their families.

[LeeLau]

^^^^ this except for the kids who were brought along to the event as spectators. Unbelievable

[goral]

I agree that the issue is SOME, not all, sledders have no clue. Any guesses on how many locals were treated for injuries afterwards? Maybe one or two out of thirty. Lots of people were smart and stayed away that day.

The reason the whole sledding community gets lumped together though is because you barely hear any sledders speaking out afterwards and saying that yes this was a poor judgement call. Instead you hear things like respect the family and pray for the injured, now is not the time to judge, act of god, and that this is part of the acceptable risk of mountain sledding (at least that is my impression from sledding forums and the quotes on the news). If sledders want to improve their PR they need to be proactive and say something constructive rather than retreat into a defensive shell because they think everyone is out to get them.

[Mark-R]

Something I noticed is that when someone on this board gets injured or killed, everyone is sending "vibes" but on snowandmud.com it's mostly "prayers" that are offered. And with quotes from SOME sledders such as "You're dealing with the force of God", I wonder if there's a lack of faith in avalanche science.
In my own observations, backcountry skiers tend to be more left hemisphere dominant (I love my gear and gadgets) and might have a more rational approach to avalanche risk. But there's nothing more satisfying to the right hem than squeezing the throttle of that sled. I'll admit to taking a machine out once in a while to get my fix. Just sayin'

[backcountryislife]

^^^^ this except for the kids who were brought along to the event as spectators. Unbelievable

That's the one thing that kills me in this, the people or kids that just went where they were told.
It's gut-wrenching to think of that kid who got his face torn up, a 12 year old sure didn't make that choice for himself.

It is interesting to see some of the denial over on SW, things have finally turned from "thoughts & prayers" to an actual conversation about what happened & why, and how it can be prevented.

[XXX-er]

well I listened to CBC late this afternoon and the attorney general sez changes are a coming ... time line nov 2011

he was pretty vague as to what will change but he was pretty clear that things will change

[Mannix]

I've avoided chiming in here, for lots of reasons. One, it flatly sucks that people learned the hard way, no matter what they did/did not do. Two, I'm right in between - avid, longtime skier, also longtime motorhead. Bought sleds two years ago, combined my two favorite things.

A friend of mine has been snowmobiling for, well, pretty much forever. Grew up in CA, in the mountains, in an area where snowmobiles were forms of transportation. Has been a mechanic since 86 (he's ~50). Knows snowmobiles and snowmobiling backwards and forwards.

He's a conservative fellow, has a 12 year old daughter, does not drink, does not smoke, "snowmobilers," as a group, kinda bug him ("every single one that comes in here is the BEST in the WORLD!"), not casting dispersions, just frame of reference.

I got to ride with him earlier this season.

A) he's got skills. He's just been doing it a _long_ time, and it shows. I've seen some talented riders up close and personal, and while he's not necessarily _better_ than the new-school "sledneck" riders, he's got all the tools, he's just, well, 50 and has a kid and he's over it. He just likes to ride.

B) He's not got avy awareness. At all. He's got _experience_ in the mountains, he knows what to look out for, but he's got a blind faith that I certainly don't have.

The day we rode was low-moderate risk, according to CAIC. Pretty normal day in the mountains. I was not going anywhere _near_ the upper, windloaded stuff. He rode stuff that made me uncomfortable; not stuff that was likely to slide, but in runouts I was nowhere near comfortable riding through.

We talked avy stuff a lot. He'd been caught in a couple, but recounted stories of guys in the 80s and 90s dropping cornices onto loaded slopes _hoping_ they'd go, so they could "ride the wave." Thankfully, he thought that to be pretty stupid.

The one thing that really bugged me? I have a spare beacon/probe/shovel. He did not want to wear it.

OK, confidence is cool and stuff, but, well, ummm, what if YOU need to dig ME out? Had not really occurred to him; he's been riding "forever," he's not gotten caught in a slide of significance, I guess he just kinda figured he was doing something right?

Dunno. Just a datapoint; he's not the stereotypical "sledneck." He's a down to earth, reasonable guy - with more sled-experience than most, and is just kinda riding a wave of complacency, I guess. I'm admittedly a very conservative person when it comes to avy-risk (got me oneathem daughterunits, too....gotta come back at night), but there's no way in hell I'm riding without a beacon, and normally, a partner with one (I did not force the issue that day, just stayed WELL out of harm's way, covered that base in the truck on the way home).

Certainly not advocating anything, just, well, dunno. Chiming in. I've met a LOT of snowmobilers at this point. I've met one or two dumbasses.

I've met way, way more skier-dumbasses than snowmobiler dumbasses, that's for sure, but I've been skiing a lot longer than sledding.

I think there are a lot of factors that can go into it; "I have a big machine, I can outrun it" (lots of sled videos have footage of guys knocking slabs off and acting like it is cool), "that's never slid," "there are tracks there," whatever - all I know is that what happened blows, it could have been a LOT worse, and hopefully, a lot will be learned from it.



.02c.


Iain

[backcountryislife]

I've met way, way more skier-dumbasses than snowmobiler dumbasses, that's for sure, but I've been skiing a lot longer than sledding.

Iain, not to counter my previous statements, but... next time you're up here, you should meet some more riders, it might tip the scales for you! There's plenty of them, but I've talked to more skiers that argued about avy gear than any of the sledders that I've tried to talk to.

So, you ready for another big get together? Maybe we'll have better weather this time! I think this event might help get some big numbers for another refresher day.

[Mannix]

Yup, always game. Been skiing Walmart Pass every weekend. Gaper-central, but wow, talk about low hanging fruit. Untracked everywhere.

Lemmeknow when - gotta get back to TPTSNBN soon, saw some recent pictures, looks like my favorite spot is filling in.

Set my beacon on "receive" last week in the parking lot. Admittedly, we're out way earlier than most slednecks, but once again, half of those that passed were not "beeping."

And a solid 2/3 of those people had skis/boards....

Opinions, idiots, they're found everywhere. I have noticed that the non-access riders that DON'T seem to be transmitting are on older machines/Carharts/out for the ride. Most of the "necky" looking guys (you know, black sleds, body armor, full face helmets;) _are_ transmitting, shovel handle sticking out of pack (not on sled), etc.

BCIL is right, too - skiers have NOT caught up with snowmobilers WRT avy packs (myself included). I've yet to see an access rider with an ABS/BCA/etc pack - but many of the "serious" looking guys -do- have them. Smart. I theorize that skiers see $500-1000 purchases as relatively more significant than snowmobilers. Dunno. Once into the sled-world, dropping ~$750 on Stuff does not take long; $750 goes a LONG way for a smart BC skier. Hell, you could practically outfit yourself for $1k for BC skiing; $1k in snowmobile land might get you a trailer.

blah blah blah. Count me in. Got a good group of skiers (finally), I'd not mind another refresher.


Iain

[backcountryislife]

TPTSNBN awaits us.

Te challenge though, for each serious rider that comes to get at least two people that have never had any education & don't have gear. Those are the people that we need to get into some type of education. Reminding the likes of you & me likely isn't what will make a difference out there.

Gotta teach them stupid redneck sledders a lesson!!!! yeehaw!


btw, not the biggest fan of the BCA pack, but I hope that one helps get more of the touring types into the mix. I hiked a few lines last weekend with my abs, didn't even notice that it was anything but a normal pack.

[Shorty_J]

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Av...582/story.html

This comment really irks me. On the CBC today it was reported that this woman mentions that her husband was not an avid snowmobiler, and that he'd only been out twice, this event and the same one last year... and they she suggests it's anyone's fault but her husbands?!?! Nobody has responsibility for anyone else in the backcountry but themselves. It's very sad that this guy died, but he should have made himself more aware of the consequences before diving into the backcountry.

The organizers should have stepped up and called it off, or at the very least, had a roped off area that was a safe zone where spectators had to stay.

Yes, the absolutely should have, but the fact that they didn't is not the real problem here, in my opinion.

It's very possible to be out in the mountains in the avi conditions that are HIGH-HIGH-HIGH and stay safe, but to do so, good decisions have to be made. There were a shit-ton of bad decisions made out there, and if they were thinking straight, each one of them should have come to the conclusion that this was a bad idea.

Suing the "organizer" of an "unsanctioned event" (why there is even a suggestion that any gathering in the backcountry needs to be sanctioned is beyond me and reeks of laying blame and deflecting liability) or regulating the backcountry will not accomplish anything. If the government wants to legislate something, maybe it should be a mandatory course, or a really scary video be watched by anyone buying a sled (or backcountry skis, for that matter).

Another interesting side bar... another interview on CBC this afternoon was with a guy who was there who said that the Revelstoke sledding association (or something like that) was charging people trail-access fees at the trailhead, but these are the same guys trying to distance themselves from the entire incident by saying it was "unsactioned".

[Shaggy]

well I listened to CBC late this afternoon and the attorney general sez changes are a coming ... time line nov 2011

he was pretty vague as to what will change but he was pretty clear that things will change

^^ This is exactly what concerns me the most when these incidents happen. The endless cries for more regulation by the nanny state people makes my blood boil.

[Shorty_J]

I'm sure we all go to restaurants, for example, where we trust the the business owner is providing food in a safe manner. We don't know every single thing about food borne diseases but we trust that they are going to make sure we are covered for that.

That's a good point.

There's a poster with competitors, a date, and business names on it, and there were 200 people gathered there- that's organized, whether you (and they) want to admit to that or not.

But I don't know what we accomplish by blaming the "organizers". Was there an entry fee charged (I'm not sure)? At some point, such blaming will be an opening to liability, and then an organized event will be defined to include a certain number of people, or something like that. Then we're all going to have problems.

[Shaggy]

Suing the "organizer" of an "unsanctioned event" (why there is even a suggestion that any gathering in the backcountry needs to be sanctioned is beyond me and reeks of laying blame and deflecting liability) or regulating the backcountry will not accomplish anything. If the government wants to legislate something, maybe it should be a mandatory course, or a really scary video be watched by anyone buying a sled (or backcountry skis, for that matter).

Another interesting side bar... another interview on CBC this afternoon was with a guy who was there who said that the Revelstoke sledding association (or something like that) was charging people trail-access fees at the trailhead, but these are the same guys trying to distance themselves from the entire incident by saying it was "unsactioned".

Very interesting actually. It was the Snowmobile Revelstoke Society, and they were charging an extra $7 on top of their normal $18 trail fee. (see: http://www.sledrevelstoke.com/index....&id=7&Itemid=8). However, judging from this thread it looks like they don't actually organize the event but were charging extra to deal with the extra head aches and cost they incur on that day. Of course, that could also just be lip service in a veiled attempt to shed off any liability.

What is almost certain is that the ambulance chasers will be circling this one like sharks. I certainly wouldn't want to be a director or committee member of the SRS right now.

[L7]

Another interesting side bar... another interview on CBC thisafternoon was with a guy who was there who said that the Revelstoke sledding association (or something like that) was charging people trail-access fees at the trailhead, but these are the same guys trying to distance themselves from the entire incident by saying it was "unsactioned".

I heard both of those interviews on CBC today and they were unreal. The second guy who was there said he took his avie course in Golden a couple of weeks ago. He also said the two guys who 'gave' the course were right there with him a the bottom of the slope. So the guys teaching these guys courses don't have the sense to park themselves somewhere other than the bottom of an avie path loaded with fresh snow under a 'high' warning with sledders high marking it.

The widowed woman wanted to know why they aren't regulated and licensed like that would have made her husband make better choices. She mentioned they quad and have to be licensed to travel on provincial land in Alberta so what is the difference with BC. She also said she 'demands' answers to these questions.

I think the questions she should have demanded answers to should have been asked last week. Things like, are you safe out there? Do you or any of the others know what you're doing? Do you pay attention to avalanche warnings? Do you value your commitment to your family and children more than your desire for thrills and fun with your friends? Those are questions she should have asked last week or even last year after the Sparwood tragedy when hubby first went to this event.

If anyone thinks the BC gov't will ignore this after spending gazzillions on the olympics to entice people to come enjoy the natural (safe) beauty of the BC mtns they are far dumber than the people were on that mountain. The ones that don't 'get it' are the MANY sledders that haven't figured out THEY are creating a stereotype that the general public will continue to apply in ever broadening swaths.

[teamdirt]

Another interesting side bar... another interview on CBC this afternoon was with a guy who was there who said that the Revelstoke sledding association (or something like that) was charging people trail-access fees at the trailhead, but these are the same guys trying to distance themselves from the entire incident by saying it was "unsactioned".

The snowmobile club maintains the access trails on Boulder Mountain and endures expenses from the daily grooming. They charge for trail passes pretty much everyday during snowmobile season for the last decade. Does not in any way link them to the event. Sadely the news business likes to not tell the whole story or tell just certain parts when it makes the story more interesting, which is why we are taught to not believe everything you hear.

[Shaggy]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-col...avalanche.html

... Meanwhile, B.C Solicitor General Kash Heed said new rules are coming to further regulate the use of the backcountry. Heed said the deaths and injuries on the weekend might have been prevented with stricter supervision. Work is underway to extend existing rules around backcountry usage, including provisions for the use of permits, registration, licensing, and helmet use. ...

And there it is.. time to regulate the backcountry.

[Shorty_J]

If the Snowmobile Revelstoke Society is charging money to access the area and not cancelling all access to the backcountry, how should the organizer of this event have any more liability than the Society?

And if it's so important to have licensing requirments to enter the backcountry on a sled, why didn't said wife think it important before this happened? She's upset and looking for someone other than her husband to blame. Why is this the governments fault... just because her husband was a victim of this accident? For that matter, if there was a license and registration required to have a sled in BC, would that have stopped anyone from going into the backcountry that weekend? No way! The only argument for licensing would be if an avalanche course was a requirement for the licensing, but I think this accident still would have happened as supported by the presense of so many otherwise knowledgable participants.