At least 3 dead, 15 injured after B.C. avalanche

[L7]

There's nothing inherently athletic about getting off a lift & sliding to the bottom of the hill, but I'm not ignorant enough to make the same assumption that you have & say that all skiers are fat & lazy.

Yet you are ignorant enough to not see the difference between lift accessed skiing and backcounty 'earn your turns'. I think Benny was being specific in his reference and comparison to backcountry skiing. Skiing a bunny slope takes limited skill and a credit line, backcountry DOES takes skill AND physical endurance.

At it's base level sledding only takes a credit line and opposable thumbs, the case of beer may be optional.

That isn't the same as saying that's all any sledder ever achieves he's only saying it is the minimum requirement. You and your friends may approach it much differently but that doesn't mean many out there (perhaps 200 or so last friday) don't put minimum intelligent thought into it.

You blindly defending the worst of your sport's participants only reflects badly on those of you doing it right.

[powder11]

You blindly defending the worst of your sport's participants only reflects badly on those of you doing it right.

Well stated. Those people as a whole thumbed their nose at the deadly consequences and two paid the price. Does that mean we shouldn't look at the cold hard truth of the matter and put the spot light on a percentage of a particular user group who think its all funny to cheat death, but then cry ignorance when it all goes wrong? It's astounding anyone with any sort of basic avalanche safety knowledge would not be simply outraged at that type of behavior.

[stizzmt]

Well, I've been avoiding posting here even though I've been reading intently. But I figured I'd quote a fellow poster because I think he sums up what the vast majority of us in this realm are likely thinking. These people think it's the hot shit to be suicidal.

Originally posted by eirikainersharp
I think there is a big difference between sled skiers, and sledders, i know there is cross over and I know that I'm generalizing but I still think that a pretty clear distinction exist specifically regarding the way the two groups mentally approach traveling in the mountains. The thing that I'm still trying to wrap my head around is that the hazard was high, the CAC had issued a special advisory and yet still people were pushing it in big terrain. I just can't figure out how sledder culture seems to have developed that encourages this suicidal risk tolerance.

Something has to be done to stem these insanely high sledder accident rates (19 our of 25 recreational avalanche deaths in BC in 2009 were sledders, this year I think it is about 7 out of 8). More training, yes. Better targeted and appropriate public forecasts yes. But only when sledneck culture undergoes a paradigm shift in its risk tolerance and grows out of its invincibility complex will we see a decrease in sledder deaths.

Also, if you haven't checked out these pics you should, there's a link in another thread as well, but these spell it out. Avy's in low angle terrain, extensive connection of terrain features. The reporters are calling conditions up there "weird." That's a red flag when pro's say that. Check out the "around the clock" slide in this pic:

http://www.avalanche.ca/uploads/gall..._avalanche.JPG

And this one in low angle terrain.

http://www.avalanche.ca/uploads/gall..._Chilcotin.JPG

Here's the rest of 'em. Be safe out there.

http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/library/...feb-march-2010

[Lone Star]

a few years ago, a slide path just west of the A-Basin parking lot ripped out while the ski area was open. It just as easily could have been a path that dumped into the parking lot. If a slide buried the Beach, would we be passing judgment toward the skiers who were just there to enjoy their afternoon, drink some beer, and have a good time? Again, the "organized" nature of an event like this could easily lull people into a false sense of security, the same way we think we're safe when we're boozing in the Basin lot....

I mean, I'm the first to rip on idiot dumbshits with two stroke engines, but some of the bullshit in this thread is just mind boggling. Take your ignorant hate somewhere else, fucktards.

[Singel]

Nope. Roomates, Landlord and a bunch of other friends. Detailed pics though. Had to work. Looked gnarly.

Sounds like you would have been there if you didn't have to work?

a few years ago, a slide path just west of the A-Basin parking lot ripped out while the ski area was open. It just as easily could have been a path that dumped into the parking lot. If a slide buried the Beach, would we be passing judgment toward the skiers who were just there to enjoy their afternoon, drink some beer, and have a good time? Again, the "organized" nature of an event like this could easily lull people into a false sense of security, the same way we think we're safe when we're boozing in the Basin lot....

Apples to oranges. Hell, more like comparing soy beans to leaded paint. Perhaps if you were watching a bunch of sledders highmarking above you, but even still a slide path above a ski resort parking lot is likely to be a more controlled area than the full backcountry.

Certainly there should have been many among the 200 that realized the stupidity of the situation, but unfortunately it seems that some of the 'best', 'most experienced' sledders were the ones actually creating the problem, not mitigating it.

[Fatfish]

Yes, for sure. Not as a spectator if thats what you are thinking! The friends of mine that were there are SAR. I am so glad there wasn't more fatalities. Some people have horse shoes up their asses.

[Benny Profane]

a few years ago, a slide path just west of the A-Basin parking lot ripped out while the ski area was open. It just as easily could have been a path that dumped into the parking lot. If a slide buried the Beach, would we be passing judgment toward the skiers who were just there to enjoy their afternoon, drink some beer, and have a good time?

That slide path is controlled by CDOT with helicopter bombing. I was present for one of those bombings. It was all done very safely. Not with snowmobiles doing tricks up there while we all stood in the parking lot, watching and cheering.

[Lone Star]

That slide path is controlled by CDOT with helicopter bombing. I was present for one of those bombings. It was all done very safely. Not with snowmobiles doing tricks up there while we all stood in the parking lot, watching and cheering.

you wouldn't know the difference between "safe" and "unsafe" control work.... I'm not talking about the Professor, you fucking moron.
http://avalanche.state.co.us/acc/acc...ident=20050520

blaming the injured and dead isn't going to help prevent an accident like this again. go fuck yourself and die in a grease fire.

[Meanfruit]

This thread is done. Be safe out there.

[backcountryislife]

You blindly defending the worst of your sport's participants only reflects badly on those of you doing it right.

I'm not blindly defending them, and a number of times I mention how absolutely ignorant & stupid it was to be sitting there like that.

What I AM defending against is the obnoxious over generalization that pops up it's head OVER & OVER in this thread.

Then you call me ignorant for comparing to to resort riding instead of bc. I've spent 20 years hiking, touring, & splitboarding before I ever touched a sled. I know & also directly compared a day of hiking for turns to a day of sledding. It's a hard thing to compare. Even pushing on the hikes on each lap I'm much more tired at the end of a day sledding.

It's ok though, no matter what I say, you won't get it. If you haven't put in the time on a sled you honestly don't have a clue what it's like. I sure didn't.

[goldenboy]

Anyone know how many times it had been climbed before the slide ran? The avalanche reportedly ran at 3pm, so I'm just curious if people had been hitting it all day long.

[powder11]

a few years ago, a slide path just west of the A-Basin parking lot ripped out while the ski area was open. It just as easily could have been a path that dumped into the parking lot. If a slide buried the Beach, would we be passing judgment toward the skiers who were just there to enjoy their afternoon, drink some beer, and have a good time? Again, the "organized" nature of an event like this could easily lull people into a false sense of security, the same way we think we're safe when we're boozing in the Basin lot....

If you guys were sitting there in an obvious slide path under extreme avie conditions, cheering on a few numbskulls who then somehow triggered the slide on top of you, well then, that would be fodder for more than a few new Summit county jokes.

[backcountryislife]

Goldenboy,
it didn't sound like they were there long from the reports I've heard. Sounds like it didn't take much to make this timebomb drop. They had just recently moved to that location, a decision that dropped the amount of participants to an extent, because many did not think it was a smart choice.

One problem with the events like this is they go 100% against the rules that the rest of us live by, 1 person/machine on an aspect at a time (I see this rule broken by skiers on a daily basis where I ride btw), these guys have 2 to 6 at a time cranking up at once (and then the people that were in the path at the bottom/bench).
Also it sounds like what set it off was a guy climbing over the top of a guy that was stuck, again a dead set rule that MOST of us follow. If you look at the pics of the location & the way the spectators were laid out, it looks to me that many of them thought they were out of the main slidepath, but that doesn't look terribly realistic to me. I don't think I'd hang on that bench even in good (low danger) conditions.

[XXX-er]

This was not a real event ,just a bunch of skilled experianced BC sledders doing what they would have been doing anyway which is exercising poor judgement in the name of thrills & spills ,you read any of the mudsnow forum and they are all about aviy being part of the game .... this IS what they do

Cash Heed the attorney general of the province did a flyover by chopper ... which tells me that the BC gov is taking more than a passing interest in the situation

I wonder what will come of that, the gov has the authority to close an area to motorized travel

I could you see an MLA standing up in the legislature and addressing the gov on this (with CTV coverage of course as follow on to the aviy coverage) it will go kinda like ..."honorable mr speaker will the governnment save sledders from themselves and how could they do that ?"

[pano-dude]

[QUOTE=eirikainersharp;2793437]

Something has to be done to stem these insanely high sledder accident rates (19 our of 25 recreational avalanche deaths in BC in 2009 were sledders, this year I think it is about 7 out of 8).

What people need to understand is the difference in ratio of sledders in the back country to skiers. How many unguided skiers are out in the b/c in BC on a Saturday, maybe 1000, 2000? There is that many sleds in Revy each day, now multiply that by every sled town in BC. There is going to be more sledders involved due to numbers.

There was many mistakes made this weekend by many people, first by the so called organizers of the event. Worst conditions in years and it goes ahead??? It is tragic people got hurt and died.

I would bet many of the people up there would not have been there if the event was not held.

Regardless, in my opinion there is way too many noobs laying down money for big machines they should not have and don't have time to attend an avy class. They get one or 2 weekends a year to "hit the big hills" and they do regardless of the conditions.

[backcountryislife]

This was not a real event ,just a bunch of skilled experianced BC sledders doing what they would have been doing anyway which is exercising poor judgement in the name of thrills & spills ,you read any of the mudsnow forum and they are all about aviy being part of the game .... this IS what they do

If that's how they ride up there, that's scary.

How do you mean avy's are part of the game? They're ALWAYS part of the game in the BC, that's reality, but I doubt you hear people saying, "yeah I climbed over my buddy today & set off a slide, it was SOOO cool, think I'll do it again next weekend" I just don't see any of that kind of mentality. I'm on snowest & Backcountryrebels & have never seen anything even close to the type of mentality that you describe. Maybe it's different up in Canada eh? Maybe I'm just making the wrong stereotype.

[BigDaddyLionfish]

I wish people would stop posting threads about people dying, because EVERY time it just turns into a bunch of fucks like Benny posting about how hardcore they are that they could never accidently get into a bad situation. Since some people that aren't nearly as smart and badass as fuckers like Benny, they deserve to die and, in fact, their death is sometimes funny. Fuck you guys that are posting anything other than condolences

[eirikainersharp]

Something has to be done to stem these insanely high sledder accident rates (19 our of 25 recreational avalanche deaths in BC in 2009 were sledders, this year I think it is about 7 out of 8).

What people need to understand is the difference in ratio of sledders in the back country to skiers. How many unguided skiers are out in the b/c in BC on a Saturday, maybe 1000, 2000? There is that many sleds in Revy each day, now multiply that by every sled town in BC. There is going to be more sledders involved due to numbers.

I'm not so sure, I bet on a Saturday there are almost as many cars in Rogers Pass as there are in the Quartz, and Boulder parking lots. When you keep in mind that most skiers actually carpool to the trail head I wonder if there are many more snowmobilers.

Regardless, the relative number of snowmobile fatalities is on the rise. A decade ago backcountry skiers were that primary risk group for recreation avalanche involvement. But sledder fatalities have been steadily taking up a bigger and bigger portion of the pie each year. This can't be explained completely by saying there are more sledders now than there were a decade ago, although the growing popularity of the sport is more than like likely one contributing factor. More powerful machines which let people get up in to serious terrain is another. But both of these are coupled with the fact that mountain sledding is still in its adolescences. People have been skiing big mountainous terrain for the last 50 years. Skiing has suffered losses, its grown up and a culture of safety has developed (not to say that skiers don't take stupid risks frequently). I'm just not sure sledding is there yet.

There was many mistakes made this weekend by many people, first by the so called organizers of the event. Worst conditions in years and it goes ahead??? It is tragic people got hurt and died.

Case in point.

On another note:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-col...stigation.html

B.C. Solicitor General Kash Heed flew over the site of the avalanche on Sunday and said it's fortunate more people weren't killed.
Heed said the provincial government is looking at ways to make the backcountry safer, but remained unwilling to impose restrictions on backcountry use. In B.C. no licence is required to operate a snowmobile.
"As we go forward we will determine what we can do to make this safer," said Heed.

and a little video of the post slide carnage:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americ...Top+Stories%29

[XXX-er]

If that's how they ride up there, that's scary.

How do you mean avy's are part of the game? They're ALWAYS part of the game in the BC, that's reality, but I doubt you hear people saying, "yeah I climbed over my buddy today & set off a slide, it was SOOO cool, think I'll do it again next weekend" I just don't see any of that kind of mentality. I'm on snowest & Backcountryrebels & have never seen anything even close to the type of mentality that you describe. Maybe it's different up in Canada eh? Maybe I'm just making the wrong stereotype.

I see a laugh in the face of danger/ balls to the wall/ If I die doing this that is just what happens mentality

Here is a quote from DAN123 in the clemina video thread that I posted a few pages back , I think this is maybe not entirely a mainstream sledneck view BUT not unusual in view of the fact that while some choose not to climb turbo some did ... I wonder what the ratio of people who chose to climb vs those who backed away was ?



"I realise most people die in class 2 or 3 avalanches,,and only few a due to
blunt force trama and you could be 3m under.....

Class 4 and 5 are acctually qyite rare...
reread your post:yes if you break you neck your done,,no matter how it happens thats true..
But point was,,Alot of people could be saved that aren't.But that a risk we take

I,ve been riding back country snowmobiling since 94 and if I never climbed
any hills due to dangerous conditions,well that would be every year...

IMO 2002 was worse contions than this year,,,lots of people got
killed this year,,and if the goberment shut me down I'll be more pissed
than you could imagine...

But i know what back country riding is about people DIE DOING THIS
EVERY YEAR!!!(27 in 03) I SAY SO WHAT,,you stay don't climb,,So you be
safe,, please stat home,,next year too would ya "



I think eirikainersharp has a good handle on whats up .

in any case just trying to understand whats up ,there is no point in judging ,cuz if they want to kill themselves who am I to stop them ... the only question in my mind is have they fucked themselves over enough so the government will step in ?

[backcountryislife]

I see what you're saying. On the other hand I also boat class V (don't own a dirtbike, jeep, or atv, shocker I know!)& people die doing that. We're not happy about it, we don't try to increase the odds, but we're not back doing class II either.

Different folks have a different acceptable levels of risk, the issue to me is when others get dragged into your level of risk when they may not know the difference. In general in sledding the risk is VERY contained to the one taking it, as unlike skiing where we tend to go up in a group & down in a group (one at a time, but on the same slope) on sleds you choose what YOU are comfortable with.

[LeeLau]

If that's how they ride up there, that's scary.

How do you mean avy's are part of the game? They're ALWAYS part of the game in the BC, that's reality, but I doubt you hear people saying, "yeah I climbed over my buddy today & set off a slide, it was SOOO cool, think I'll do it again next weekend" I just don't see any of that kind of mentality. I'm on snowest & Backcountryrebels & have never seen anything even close to the type of mentality that you describe. Maybe it's different up in Canada eh? Maybe I'm just making the wrong stereotype.

The comments are more along the lines of "well it could happen to anyone and it was just an act of nature and part of the risk of being out in the backcountry". It's more ignorance (i know that's a loaded term) then not caring.

and i suspect its just a minority of sledders who have that attitude but their behaviour might impact the recreation of all sledders.



I'm not sure anyone wants this - government regulation.

but it wasn't hard to foresee this incident sparking calls for more regulation http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1500520/

[mtnbiker/boarder]

Vibes to all involved...all the finger pointing and fighting here isn't going to change anything....the bottom line is AVI AWARENESS is needed with more of influx of poeple coming into the moutains on sleds, snowboards and skiis.....be safe to all

[XXX-er]

BCIL I been in boating for longer than I will mention , I never boated more than IV ,know people who do or did (they didn't die they quit ) and while people die in boating accidents every year l don't think ever seen quite the same wide spread attitude of acceptance as in sledding


I think ignorance is a thing of the past ,now they accept the danger and they just don't care


according to the Shock Doctrine NOW is the best time to change things ,joe sledder could have fucked it up for himself which is his own problem cuz I don't own one ...the question is how will it affect the rest of us BC users of crown land in BC ?

[skiingnow]

The sledders are learning something, they carry the gear and some know how to use it. Its amazing more people weren't hurt or killed.

They now need to learn to respect the snow conditions and terrain.

You can go out in high/considerable, just choose your terrain wisely. But if snow is sliding even in moderate terrain... then it might be best not to go out.

I guess it will take more time for them to figure out the other parts to the equation.
This group didn't consider either.

I think the money the guys over at snow and mud are raising will be for the lawsuits once the blame game starts happening.

Sure does look like they're not going to take responsibility for their decisions.

The Blame game is already beginning.
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Av...582/story.html

[sparkletarte.]

I find this incident fairly maddening. Yes, it's terrible that people died and it's amazing that it wasn't worse.

I think finger pointing is appropriate, actually. the organizers should have stepped up and called it off, or at the very least, had a roped off area that was a safe zone where spectators had to stay.

It's like someone had a big party in a condemned building. they were given clear warnings about the building being not up to code, that the roof was likely to cave in because it was not supported, and possibly some of the organizers were in construction and knew the building was in terrible shape, but they went ahead, had the party, and the roof caved in. Would people say, oh it's a risk of having parties? No. They would be pissed and the organizers would probably be subject to criminal charges.

eta- it's great that they had gear, but that doesn't change the fact that the event was held where and when it was. A guy who was involved in it was on cbc this morning saying that avys are a risk of the sport, it's an extreme sport, we know it can happen, blahblahblah. Fine. Then mitigate your risks. Keep the spectators safe (do the X games let spectators stand in the middle of the motocross pit? no.) and have your own first aid, searchers, and heli on hand to deal with the potential repercussions. It's one thing if you are doing it on your own, but this was an organized, advertised event.