Summer use of ski areas

[nickwm21]

Where is Whistler's El Capitan?

Mammoth has an el capitan? I thought that was in the Yosemite valley? I think it would take over an hour to drive from mammoth to the valley...

im new to mt biking... never done lift accessed dh. but ive heard a ton about whistler's bike park, as well as keystone and northstar, but this is the only one of the few times ive heard about mammoths. If they have the best one, why aren't there PR and marketing people out there telling us?

[Woolly the Mammoth]

Mammoth kicks ass in the summertime. The only thing I don't like about it is the lack of consistent, reliable whitewater. I went to Whistler in the summer once and the mountain was closed to all human access due to fire danger. That's bullshit.

In regards to the original post, more ski areas should build disc golf courses, which can be designed so that chair lifts can be used to access the first tee.

[kidwoo]

Mammoth has an el capitan? I thought that was in the Yosemite valley? I think it would take over an hour to drive from mammoth to the valley...

im new to mt biking... never done lift accessed dh. but ive heard a ton about whistler's bike park, as well as keystone and northstar, but this is the only one of the few times ive heard about mammoths. If they have the best one, why aren't there PR and marketing people out there telling us?

Thank god a sentient being.

Whistler's bike park is the biggest and best in North America, if not the world. They figured out a way to invest in some initial infrastructure and actually turn a profit of the biking alone. And the largest event with the most visitors in one week (and their accompanying wallets) is for a weeklong bike event. This makes even more money than any ski week which is kind of nuts. Not to mention all the other fluffery that goes on there in the summer.....zip lines etc.. Mammoth just turns the lift every year relying on some pretty haggard trails that were built for races over the last two decades. One pays, one operates at a loss every year. Which of course is at least related to the thread topic. Mammoth is also kind of at a loss not having blackcomb's glacier for summer skiing but that applies to most places.

But the whole summer destination thing in general, whistler has dialed. And anyone who touts the shortcomings of the area hasn't had a look around while they're there.

[kidwoo]

Dude are you fucking kidding me? They held the downhill mountain bike championships on Mammoth's Kamikaze trail every year forever. They only stopped when they had to do all the new construction for the village. Throwing fucking Keystone or Northstar on the same league as Whistler or Mammoth's dh biking is fucking retarded. If you haven't heard of Mammoth's biking marketing its because they don't have to market. Mammoth has had the best dh biking in the US (and as we see in this thread argueably the world) ever since dh biking existed. It is obvious you are new to biking.

Dear god, you really don't know very much.

I have fun riding down there too but there are several mountains around the country these days that put mammoth to shame.


Seriously dude. Travel some. There's more to life than a fire road, chainsmoke, bullet and velocity.

[MTT]

Dear god, you really don't know very much.

I have fun riding down there too but there are several mountains around the country these days that put mammoth to shame.


Seriously dude. Travel some. There's more to life than a fire road, chainsmoke, bullet and velocity.

Kinda funny reading an internet cat fight between a guy who lives North Shore Tahoe, and some dude? who comes from (God knows where) I am guessing not a Mammoth local.

KIDWOO!! whats up. You have good St. Paddies day?

Also. Breakfast on the North Shore.
Last few times I stopped at Fire Sigh It was kinda Meaa??

Whats the good spot now for a hearty breakfast.

Is the Post Office still solid?
Rosies?

__________________________________________________ _________

To the original intent of this thread.
I would not like to see any of the Track Sled ride stuff at any Tahoe resort.

I would like to see lift assisted Mountain biking off the KT-22 lift They could make some very wild trails down through that area. And still leave all the area off the tram more pristine for all the Tree huggin, Granola eatin bird watcher types.

[MTT]

If you'd read the thread you'd see I'm in LCC. You know the place where we actually get snow as opposed to the oh so great North Shore Tahoe where I still can't get an answer as to whether or not you guys finally got some snow to ski on (we've been skiing pow since beginning of Oct here).

OHHH your so core!!

Eat a bag of dicks

[Shaggy]

YSEBB = Your Supreme Excellency re-incarnated, or Your Supreme Excellency's Butt Buddy..

Best to just leave the troll alone....

[nickwm21]

If you'd read the thread you'd see I'm in LCC. You know the place where we actually get snow as opposed to the oh so great North Shore Tahoe where I still can't get an answer as to whether or not you guys finally got some snow to ski on (we've been skiing pow since beginning of Oct here).

Fail!

I got some fresh turns in today! from the 10 inches the other night... over 5 ft in the beginning of may... right now the resorts in NS have the most coverage I have seen in the past couple of seasons.. AND ITS MAY! although are season started dry... it turned into a pretty epic one. right now is probably the worst time to say that Tahoe has no snow. Squaw and AM have more snow than mt hood, vail, jackson, big sky, and park city

[Mike Pow]

Back on track.

Rusutsu Resort on the northern Japanese island of Hokkaido has a full amusement park and water slide at the base of one of the mountains.

It's packed during the summer.

http://en.rusutsu.co.jp/summer/amusementpark.html

[summit]

All this Whistler vs Mammoth stuff makes me glad that I can just go to Sol Vista and know that I'm getting the best gnar there is, winter or summer.

[bngofast]

That's because you don't know that much about the market I think.

edit: I had some other stuff typed here but removed it out of respect so that we could both enjoy the idiocy that follows VVVV

Yeah I guess 8 years in and around the industry and a Pro UCI license don't mean I know that much. That's cool.

And I should clarify my other statement. Whistler is probably coming really close to, if not making money on their bike park exclusively. Still no one else is. Think about it, even if Winter Park has 300 people show up on a given day(rare if it ever happens) and pay for lift tickets to ride the lifts with their bike, that's still only $10-12k in gross revenue for that magical one day out of the year that many people show up. I'd say on average they struggle to break 3K in gross revenue which doesn't nearly cover the cost of land use permits, lift operations, trail maintenence, lift ops, bike patrol, operation of the medical center, etc.

And yes, DH bikes are expensive but a large majority of DH bikes purchases every year are sold from team racers selling their bikes off to cheap sport class racers at no profit to the manufacturers. Why do you think so few bike retailers actually sell retail priced bikes? Because no one pays full price for them.

[bngofast]

All this Whistler vs Mammoth stuff makes me glad that I can just go to Sol Vista and know that I'm getting the best gnar there is, winter or summer.

Echo that. If you're going anywhere else for real DH riding this summer, you should try and grow your balls back!

[SILENCER]

This thread has become very entertaining.

[kidwoo]

Yeah I guess 8 years in and around the industry and a Pro UCI license don't mean I know that much. That's cool.

Aw come on. Some of the dumbest, most uneducated people I know tout their 'pro' racing career as a credential. Not saying that's you by any means but it's no qualification for anything but racing.

And I should clarify my other statement. Whistler is probably coming really close to, if not making money on their bike park exclusively. Still no one else is.

Not true. Northstar turned a profit for the first time last summer. A meager one but they made money. Visits there were exponentially larger than previous years. Mostly because they hired a trail crew and built a bunch of new terrain but they finally saw that the infrastructure is a good investment. The bay area feeder market is huge for bikes obviously. They've started to tap into it with some mellower faster trails and a little bit of effort, including more stay and bike lodging packages.

I don't know a whole lot about winter park other than it's more of a trail bike mountain. But they've obviously convinced themselves there is a lucrative big bike market and that keystone and sol vista are onto something.

This was just posted in the bike forum here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oqHXHW_Rr0
(hiring gravity logic isn't cheap)

Summit county and tahoe in particular have huge population hubs nearby coupled with enormous biking populations as you know. If a whistler scenario can happen it's most likely going to be in one of these places first.

And whistler as an enterprise DOES turn a profit off the bike park. Yeah, not necessarily of the lift tickets because they're kind of cheap but remember it's the same hands selling the condos, beer and food up there.

Either way, there's a successful model out there. Otherwise they wouldn't be sending around gravity logic as consultants. I wish I knew more about the parks in europe.

See you at sol vista this summer

[plurpimpin]

Ok some people obviously don't understand whistler's role in the mountain bike community. Whistler is THE downhill mtb destination. It is a mtb mecca because of how much work they put in their trails. People travel from all over the world to ride whistler's park.

[altagirl]

FWIW - I've gone to 10 times as many resorts to go mountain biking in summer than I have to ski in winter in the past 5 years or so. I'm spending money on lodging, travel, food, lift tickets...

And probably the biggest portion of my bike trip budget goes to the annual Whistler trip. And I couldn't even tell you about the mountain biking trails outside the bike park because once I'm there I don't want to leave. They know how to get my money. If someone would build trails like that here (and a lift system like theirs that moves bikes and people quickly) - particularly somewhere closer to home so it didn't take a full day or more of travel to get there - they'd get a large amount of money from me. And I think from a lot of people.

And I think it's great if they're attracting more people there with ziplines and alpine slides and music festivals and whatever else they can think of. That keeps them in business and keeps the lift lines more reasonable so it sounds good to me.

[snowful]

...And I couldn't even tell you about the mountain biking trails outside the bike park because once I'm there I don't want to leave. They know how to get my money. If someone would build trails like that here (and a lift system like theirs that moves bikes and people quickly) - particularly somewhere closer to home so it didn't take a full day or more of travel to get there - they'd get a large amount of money from me. And I think from a lot of people...

Exactly my experiences and thoughts.

[bngofast]

See you at sol vista this summer

Absolutely. Nat'l champs!!!!

[Sinfield]

And yes, DH bikes are expensive but a large majority of DH bikes purchases every year are sold from team racers selling their bikes off to cheap sport class racers at no profit to the manufacturers. Why do you think so few bike retailers actually sell retail priced bikes? Because no one pays full price for them.

Bullshit.

Maybe strictly downhill race bikes, but the market for freeride bikes is fucking booming. I'm 100% sure that the thousands of freeride junkies in B.C./ as well as all the people who ride here in Hood River, etc. do not buy them from a handful of team racers.

In reference to the original topic, as much money as I'm sure Whistler brings in every summer, I feel like the massive head start that they've gotten over other summer bike hills means that it's gonna take a miracle for other hills to unseat them and turn a profit. The problem with other resorts opening bike parks is that Whistler is THE destination for lift access riding, and the massive crowds that they draw aren't likely to flock to another mountain.

[kidwoo]

In reference to the original topic, as much money as I'm sure Whistler brings in every summer, I feel like the massive head start that they've gotten over other summer bike hills means that it's gonna take a miracle for other hills to unseat them and turn a profit. The problem with other resorts opening bike parks is that Whistler is THE destination for lift access riding, and the massive crowds that they draw aren't likely to flock to another mountain.

I disagree.

It has more to do with the fact that most US resorts just haven't gotten off their asses and actually put some thought into hiring GOOD trailbuilders to compete with whistler. Every single mountain I know of in the US (except maybe sol vista) just half asses it by doing something like hiring some clown who works there in the winter who happens to own a mountain bike. And at 9 bucks an hour, it will never happen. Whistler from the get go hired knowledgeable people to set up the infrastructure. Then word spread that there were trails worth traveling for........... Not to mention holding events and putting a similar amount of effort into making them genuinely interesting.

US resorts just need to realize that it's a very worthwhile investment if they take the time to do it right and hire the most knowledgeable people they can. Right now you couldn't drill that into their heads with a friggin coring rig.

I for one would have no problem going to keystone, mtn creek (diablo), mammoth or big sky if the trails were as good or better than whistler instead of trucking up to canadia every summer.


Right now the best trail crew I know of is sol vista. And they got that crew because even though they're just essentially a real estate/country club entity, they at least had the foresight to ask around before they hired. And lookie here...........national series champs at their mountain this year after only two years of operation.

[Sinfield]

I'd love to see it. Fuck shuttling. I'm a lazy bastard.

[kidwoo]

I'd love to see it. Fuck shuttling. I'm a lazy bastard.

Shit me too. I'd love to BE part of the trail crew at one of these places but I'm not leaving my job to work for mcdonald's pay. That's pretty much across the board everywhere.

As far as setup goes, fuck keystone for not getting on the ball. They've got the elevation, some damn nice dirt, but the bike park is still a tertiary thought. I mean.......you've seen the trail 'money' right? Good gawd what a piece of shit. That's their attempt at A-line?????????

[toast2266]

Right now the best trail crew I know of is sol vista. And they got that crew because even though they're just essentially a real estate/country club entity, they at least had the foresight to ask around before they hired. And lookie here...........national series champs at their mountain this year after only two years of operation.

Didn't Sol Vista essentially start as Big Crank's (local CO race team) little playground? I was under the impression that all of Big Cranks "secret" trails at vail got torn up, so they went looking for other places to build. Somehow they ended up partnering with Sol Vista, and now they've built some sweet trails, which thankfully Sol Vista has embraced. Has Sol Vista hired different guys for trail work now, or is it still local race teams doing most of the work?

I could also be totally wrong on how that progressed... the last time I rode at Sol Vista was before any of that happened and they were just running a podunk race on the one trail on the mountain. I'm a bit out of the loop on the CO trail scene.

[intheWRONGsummitcounty]

Alot of the west needs quality roller coasters. Obviously the larger metro areas have full-blown amusement parks (such as so-cal's Six Flags, and a handful of thrill rides in Vegas), but I don't think the central west (CO, UT, ID, WY, MT) has any good amusement parks to speak of. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

However, if the built up a bunch of roller coasters, especially stand-up ones to mimic skiing, that would be SICK. One's spanning the entire mountain would outsize the vertical rise on the largest thrill rides currently found in amusement parks.

Jackson should make a non-permanent roller coaster off or S&S or Corbet's. I'd pay to ride that at speeds alot higher than you can get striaghtlining it, and without risk of injuries. Also, for people too afraid to ski those couloirs (out of the entire skiing population that skis up and looks down (not the skewed population of most riders here at TGR) it's probably >95%).

I think the opening poster feels that these make the mountian "tacky." That's true somewhat. But at the same time, lift towers in summer are kind of tacky. And furthermore, what is a SKI RESORT'S MOUNTAIN good for without snow (biking for sure). But in my own opinion cut-out trails are an eye-sore in the summer, especially in the national FORESTS of our country. I just don't see how adding a roller-coaster (or 10) to the hill would add to the un-naturality of lift towers, cut-out trails, lodges, and everything else on a ski hill.

Just another thought: in some parts of the country for every one person who is willing to pay for a biking vacation, there are 25 to 50 who will pay for a skiing vacation. That may be why the mountain bike scene is not amped up as a for-profit thing at alot of ski resorts.


But anyway, would anyone else be stoked to ride a Rendezvous Peak roller coaster with its first drop off S&S?

[kidwoo]

Heh^

that could be fun

Didn't Sol Vista essentially start as Big Crank's (local CO race team) little playground? I was under the impression that all of Big Cranks "secret" trails at vail got torn up, so they went looking for other places to build. Somehow they ended up partnering with Sol Vista, and now they've built some sweet trails, which thankfully Sol Vista has embraced. Has Sol Vista hired different guys for trail work now, or is it still local race teams doing most of the work?

I could also be totally wrong on how that progressed... the last time I rode at Sol Vista was before any of that happened and they were just running a podunk race on the one trail on the mountain. I'm a bit out of the loop on the CO trail scene.

eehhh......don't know about that one. Maybe a half truth in there since I think some of the guys were big crank fellers. But if you're looking for a place to build low visibility trails, a ski area would be your dumbest option. Although I've been keeping track of what's going on there, the first year of operation definitely had that 'new trail' look to most of the terrain and I do think most of that stuff was built under the guise of legit company trails.

Regardless of how they got there, they've staffed people who know what the fuck they're doing, which is head and shoulders above almost every other mountain in the country.