Meet Jack - Dog Training Advice?

**Chainsaw_Willie** · 01-27-2008, 08:39 PM

I'd like to introduce you to my new best friend - Jack.

Adopted him from the Ocean Shores PAWS shelter yesterday. They found him hanging around outside the shelter one day back at the end of October and no one ever claimed him, 'til now. He appears to be mostly Chow/Lab mix with maybe some ACD or Border Collie thrown in for coloring.

He's just about a year old according to both the vet the shelter works with and my own vet, whom he visited yesterday.

He's a really happy dog, loves everyone and all the other dogs he comes across, well most of them (more on that in a minute), always wagging his tail and wanting to play, and seems reasonably eager to please.

He's completely untrained though, doesn't know his name or any basic commands and has some bad habits, such as mouthing, a tendency to jump up when excited, and pulls hard when walking on leash. I feel we've already made decent progress on the jumping up and walking on leash areas in just the last two days but the mouthing is going to be harder to break him of. At least he's housebroken and is past the chew everything in sight stage, though he has some separation anxiety that may make things interesting when I go to school tomorrow.

I will be enrolling him in an obedience class at the end of February.

My biggest concern, and the area I'm hoping to get some immediate advice on is how he gets along with Tor, my 12yo Norwegian Elkhound.

Jack wants to play but Tor will have none of it. They generally tolerate each other, but if they both go after a toy at the same time a fight breaks out. I fed them separately but afterwards Tor went to check out Jack's bowl and another fight broke out. Jack's a big boy and VERY strong (75 lbs) and poor old Tor (50 lbs) is completely outclassed yet he's the butthead instigator. I was throwing a ball around and Tor went after it, got to it first and when Jack jumped in Tor lashed out. Before I could separate them Jack got ahold of Tor's nose and gave him a couple new holes in it. Nothing serious, but I'm really afraid there's going to be a very serious fight if I leave them alone unsupervised.

Any suggestions for promoting peace between these guys would be much appreciated. Tor's been my best buddy for 12 years but he's too old to go hiking and jogging with me any more, he just can't keep up. Jack is going to be the perfect hiking and jogging companion and he has such a sweet disposition. I can't imagine taking him back to the shelter...

**timvwcom** · 01-27-2008, 09:13 PM

I haven't had a dog since childhood... but now that I've watched a half dozen "Dog Whisperer" episodes with Ceasar Chavez on cable I consider myself some kind of expert on this subject.

I'd guess that one dog or the other will have to win the dominant role. It sounds a bit like you could be uncomfortable if the new dog took that spot over?

Well, guess this shows the limits of TV expertise... two sentences and I'm out of subject matter!

L7 · 01-27-2008, 09:29 PM

It sounds like the old guy needs some training. You say he instigates and he's not going to assert dominance on the bigger dog. Don't 'correct' him in front of the other dog though, that could just make it worse.

**SuperChief** · 01-27-2008, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by timvwcom

I haven't had a dog since childhood... but now that I've watched a half dozen "Dog Whisperer" episodes with Ceasar Chavez on cable I consider myself some kind of expert on this subject.

I'd guess that one dog or the other will have to win the dominant role. It sounds a bit like you could be uncomfortable if the new dog took that spot over?

Well, guess this shows the limits of TV expertise... two sentences and I'm out of subject matter!

You could take them rollerblading, seems to work for Ceasar.

**RedWolf** · 01-27-2008, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by timvwcom

I haven't had a dog since childhood... but now that I've watched a half dozen "Dog Whisperer" episodes with Ceasar Chavez on cable I consider myself some kind of expert on this subject.

I'd guess that one dog or the other will have to win the dominant role. It sounds a bit like you could be uncomfortable if the new dog took that spot over?

Well, guess this shows the limits of TV expertise... two sentences and I'm out of subject matter!

You need to watch more Caesar! YOU have to win the dominant role, not your dogs! My parents just went through this with adopting a dog a couple of weeks ago.

I'm absolutely no expert, or really even knowledgeable on dog training, but I gave it a shot when my girlfriend's dog and the new dog did NOT get along. I put them on leashes and took them into the backyard. I let them smell each other if they were being respectful about it, and let them play but corrected them the moment they acted even remotely dominant (tug on the leash, using my body/legs to block them, or assertively, NOT VIOLENTLY, put them on the ground on their side if they actually tried to go for the other dog). It sounds kinda cheesy, but in effect I told them that I was boss and that their behavior was not acceptable to me. They've been just fine ever since.

Also, your Elkhound probably feels like he's been intruded upon and replaced, and thus his nose is kinda out of joint. Give him a few days and he'll come around to having a new playmate. A good thing to learn from Caesar: tails pointed up or over their back means they are in a dominant/nervous/aggressive state. I really have no idea what I'm talking about, so take it or leave it... its just my two cents.

**timvwcom** · 01-27-2008, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by RedWolf

You need to watch more Caesar! YOU have to win the dominant role, not your dogs!

I'm an idiot of course, but as I understand it... There is a hierarchical (ps thank god for spell check when you are drunk!) structure. Meaning that YES, the human should be #1, but the dogs will have to sort out #2 and #3 between them. One of them will still be dominant over the other, no?

Originally Posted by RedWolf

I'm absolutely no expert, or really even knowledgeable on dog training, but I gave it a shot when my girlfriend's dog and the new dog did NOT get along. I put them on leashes and took them into the backyard. I let them smell each other if they were being respectful about it, and let them play but corrected them the moment they acted even remotely dominant (tug on the leash, using my body/legs to block them, or assertively, NOT VIOLENTLY, put them on the ground on their side if they actually tried to go for the other dog). It sounds kinda cheesy, but in effect I told them that I was boss and that their behavior was not acceptable to me. They've been just fine ever since.

Again, I only play an expert on TV... but aren't you suppose to make a sharp "tszhhhh!!" sound when you are doing this? Ceasar does!!!

Originally Posted by RedWolf

I really have no idea what I'm talking about, so take it or leave it... its just my two cents.

Your honor, I'd like to move that the court accept "RedWolf" as an expert witness in "dog related matters". Not only has he actually touched dogs in the last couple years (unlike me), but he has probably watched more episodes of Dog Whispererererereeerrreee also!!! PS. Even his handle (other one) is dog related... Right?

**Fear Of A Flat Planet** · 01-27-2008, 11:09 PM

sweet dog. these leads generally cure a dog's tendency to pull on the lead.

**FJ62** · 01-28-2008, 12:09 AM

Hire a dog trainer to make a house call asap. Before the class, even. They do this... it aint cheap but if you save 100 bucks worth of furniture or shoes, you've broken even. In Seattle, I had a good experience with Danette Johnston (Dogs Day Out) and also Ahimsa Dog Training.

Definitely get the dog a haltie type collar (like above) to curb the pulling. The dog will try to take it off at first but it really helps them stop pulling.

It doesn't sound like they're ready to play fetch together. The best advice I can offer is to exercise them separately and tire them each out as best you can. Figure out a way to reward Tor for tolerating the new guy. Make it somehow seem like this new dog was a great thing that has somehow resulted in a gravy train of treats or toys or whatever. He'll stop focusing on what Jack is doing and start focusing more on what you're up to. He's feeling threatened and probably a little out-of-the-loop. He still needs to feel like your favorite dog (which he's used to). Eventually, he'll share everything.

Good luck.. I don't envy you. We got our second dog as a 16 week old pup which made life a little easier. The pup knew the older guy was in charge. And def. get a real trainer out there if you can.

**irul&ublo** · 01-28-2008, 09:18 AM

Food bowl and toy guarding can be a real problem; part of it is the adjusting period, hopefully it will work out. The issue you have is that you brought home an adult dog, as opposed to a puppy.

Jack is part German Shepherd, look at his ears. Looks like some pitbull too, with the shape of the head. Two high drive, high energy breeds. He will need somethong to do. I assume he is snipped. If not, do so.

Basic obedience, sit, stay, heel and down. Go to a class and learn how to do it. 15-20 min. a day, interspereded with play time will work wonders. I am an advocate for chokers, used properly. That is out of style, but when used correctly they are very effective. A choker should be the right size (1-11/2 in. of lead after going around the neck) and never left on the dog, they are for training only.

**NashBoarder** · 01-28-2008, 10:03 AM

Some good advice given here. I recently got a 2 year old black lab and have been going through some of the same things here. I'm a huge believer in what Caeser Milan teaches. I suggest you watch a number of his shows and pick up his book. It's all about becoming the pack leader. If there is no clear pack leader, a dog will assume the leader position. Sounds like Jacks is doing this. Mounting or humping is a dominant action. A couple of things to help with the dominant aspects.

Always go through a doorway first when you are leaving or entering. This helps with the idea of "following" the pack leader". If you are walking around in your house or wherever, don't go around the dog if they are in your way. Make the dog get out of your way, as you are the leader. Since the young boy is a much higher energy level as your old boy. Take him for a walk first, try to get some energy out of him, then walk with both of them together. One of the most imporant things to remember when walking a dog (especially a dominant one) is to keep them right next to your or behind you. Don't let them "do their thing" out of front of you. Also, no sniffing trees, bushes, mailboxes until you stop and "allow" them to. Walking dogs gives them a sense of "we're on a mission with our leader". The leader says when to stop and take a pee/sniff a bush or whatever. Choke collars and other restraining devices can help get him under control if used properly. Also, Caeser teaches placing the collar up high on the neck (right behind their ears). This enables you to steer the head more as opposed to keeping the collar on the lower part (more powerful area of the neck). If the dog is extremely interested in another dog or something while you are walking. It's best not to pull back on the leash. This can create a stronger drive in the dog to go after the thing they are focused on. It's best to tug the leash to the side to "snap them out of it". Another thing, don't feed the dog until he goes into a calm submission state. This can be tricky to do though.

Like somebody said above, if the dog is misbehaving, the best thing to do, is pin it down until the dog submits to you, ie stops struggling and relaxes. Don't hit your dog, this confuses the dog as hitting doesn't exist in dog packs. Simply hold your hand on it's neck like another dog bitting or pinning the dog down with it's mouth. This is how pack leaders do it.

Once again, watch the dog whisper and remember Exercise, Displine, and Affection and in that order. Sounds like you'll need to do a fair amount of number one too with those breeds.

**PNWbrit** · 01-28-2008, 11:32 AM

Willie

Talk to these guys - www.cascade-k9.com

Based in Preston just off I-90.

**powder11** · 01-28-2008, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Chainsaw_Willie

I'd like to introduce you to my new best friend - Jack.

Adopted him from the Ocean Shores PAWS shelter yesterday. They found him hanging around outside the shelter one day back at the end of October and no one ever claimed him, 'til now. He appears to be mostly Chow/Lab mix with maybe some ACD or Border Collie thrown in for coloring.

Looking at Jacks stance and features, I think you might be mistaking the border collie for Karelian Bear dog. His alert eyes, pointy ears, robust chest and slanted hindquarters all look like a Karelian. It might also explain his temperament and wanting to brawl with the other dog.

My Karelian acted the same way with our older dog, but the older dog pretty much told her what was up from day one and the Karelian was a puppy, so its not the same. I would let them settle it while you around and break it up if it starts to cross the line. Never leave them alone together until they work it out. Crating Jack while you're not home and feeding them separately are good options. Make Jack sit/stay while the other dog eats. Jack may end up the dominate one and the other dog will just have to accept it.

**The AD** · 01-28-2008, 12:58 PM

Jack is a great looking dog. Congrats!

**hutash** · 01-28-2008, 02:20 PM

You need to remember Jack is your new second best friend Tor is number one. Tor gets feed first, gets attention first, gets let in the house first et cetera. If a fight or growling occurs, it is Jacks fault, even if Tor starts it. Jack is pushing his limits, and tor is trying to remind him he is second best. You need to reinforce that so the transition occurs quickly before a major fight.

Promise halters or halties are the way to go. Dogs don't like them at first, because they give you so much control.

Get in a class or have a trainer work with you and Jack ASAP.

Disclaimer- I have never watched Cesar, but I do have a little experience.

**Chainsaw_Willie** · 01-28-2008, 06:30 PM

Thanks for all the advice!

We'll probably ponder Jack's lineage 'til the day he dies. The big purple blotch on the back of his tongue screams Chow, loud and clear (are there any other breeds with purple tongues?) and I've seen a bunch of other Chow mixes that have heads very similar to his, they seem to be kind of common around here. Check out this picture of a Chow and imagine what he'd look like if you shaved his long fur:

Check out his stance, too. Karaelians on the other hand are super-rare. Of course it's possible, but I really think Chow and something else (probably several something elses) is more likely. I was only thinking Border Collie or Cattle Dog because of the white splashes and splotches on him - he's definitely not a straight Chow/Lab mix due to the colors, and not a Chow/Shepherd mix as his coat is too short and only a single layer. Most of the "Northern" or "Spitz" breeds (Elkhounds, Huskies, Malamutes, Akitas, Shiba Inu, Chow, etc.) have ears like his. Look at Tor's ears, his and Jack's are about the same size in relation to their heads. His body really looks like a lab's though when you see him in person. He does have a long neck like that Karaelian though...

As to the alpha-dominance thing, I have no problem with that, understand the idea very well. It's something you learn when you've raised Elkhounds as they are a very stubborn, hard-headed breed with strong dominant tendencies. Tor knows I'm the alpha and totally respects my authoritah. He listens to me very well and I can take anything away from him at any time, pick him up, roll him over, etc. etc and he doesn't protest. He'll sit, lay down, heel, 'leave it', etc. on command. However, he is extremely dominant towards other dogs. The other Elkie I used to have was submissive enough that they got along fine. I honestly think he would fight to the death rather than let another dog be alpha over him, and that's what scares me.

Tor is old and lazy now. In the last year he's really lost most of his energy. He still wants to run and play, but he tires out extremely quickly. A few minutes of running around the yard or a brisk walk of a mile or so tires him out and he's ready to lay down again. The vet's checked him out and can't find anything wrong with him, I guess old age has finally caught up to him.

I'm about to go find out if I can keep up with Jack while jogging. Going to stop and get one of those halties on the way to the park.

I guess it's up to me to enforce the pack order then. I started doing that already by making sure Tor comes in the house or goes out first, gets first dibs at the water bowl when they've been outside, gets a treat as soon as I get home, etc. I hope that's enough. I *have* to give Jack more of my time if I want to train him and exercise him sufficiently. I can't handle both dogs at once in a public place and Tor's already as trained as he's going to be. I've also contacted a couple of dog trainers in this area and am waiting to hear back from them.

Anyway, sorry to be so long winded and do appreciate the input. Anything else anyone has to say would be much appreciated.

On a real positive note, Jack is very well housebroken. I took a gamble and left him loose in the house today as I had a strong feeling he'd be fine. When I got home the only thing out of place was a pillow from the couch was on the floor. No messes, nothing else disturbed, and one really happy, mouthy young dog doing his best to wag his tail off at the front door. Good Jack! He also responded to "Jack, sit!" once he calmed down a little bit. Planted his butt right on the floor and kept his eyes on me, for which he got lots of praise and a piece of beggin' strip.

**powder11** · 01-28-2008, 06:51 PM

^^awesome! Jack's a fine looking dog whatever he might be and you're stoked to have him. Give it time and some training and they'll both do just fine.

**Chainsaw_Willie** · 01-28-2008, 09:15 PM

Best. Idea. Evar!

Yeah, I know it's not setup properly, next time it will be. Even like that it was amazing how effective it was.

Thanks again!

**hutash** · 01-28-2008, 11:29 PM

^^^those things are magic,but yeah you need to adjust it properly. Once they learn with it you hardly ever have to use it.

BTW black pigment on the tongue is not proof of chow chow. A lot of dogs, especially labs have a lot of black on their tongues. If most of the mouth is black then I tend to think more chow chow. He is what he is, and you will never know.

**Chainsaw_Willie** · 01-29-2008, 12:19 AM

Huh, did not know other breeds had the purple tongue thing, I've only seen it/heard about it in Chows. Wait a second... Black? Purple? The Chows I've seen have definitely been a striking shade of purple, not black, and the patch on Jack's tongue is most definitely purple. Are we talking about the same thing? Just curious because I've never heard of black on the tongue. Not that I'm any kind of expert or even really knowledgeable at all about this. Now I'm just curious. In the end, all that really matters of course is that he's a pretty good dog.

Jack's definitely testing his boundaries. Doubt he's ever had any imposed on him so having an alpha running the show is something new to him. A good sign is that if he gets pushy and I assert myself he'll frequently roll over and submit at which point I praise him and give him a good tummy rub. He did this in the middle of the pet store the other day when I was trying to fit him for a backpack and he wouldn't stand still. He kept trying to squirm away and I kept pulling him back into position then suddenly he just gave up and rolled over. I rubbed his tummy and talked nice to him and after that he stood still and let me fit the pack on him. Tor NEVER did that when he was young. He was the most headstrong, stubborn dog I've ever met and I had to be really firm with him, seriously like he was in doggy bootcamp, 'til he was about 3 years old.

**irul&ublo** · 01-29-2008, 12:19 PM

German Shepherds often have black or purple markings on the tongue. That muzzle looks Shepherd, as does the tail.

**SuperChief** · 01-30-2008, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by irul&ublo

German Shepherds often have black or purple markings on the tongue. That muzzle looks Shepherd, as does the tail.

Huskies and Shepherds have the same ears, and tails and also have that star on the chest, most shephard mixes I know have different color feet.

Nice harness now go get some roller blades.

**Chainsaw_Willie** · 01-30-2008, 11:54 PM

Uhh, that's not a harness dude. A harness would go around his shoulders and allow him to pull with all his strength...

And as for rollerblades, I was thinking a pair of those shoes with the little wheels in the heels would be more practical. I can't seem to find any in my size though.

**hhski** · 01-31-2008, 07:19 AM

We have 2 dogs in our house and recently got a third. The less dominant one took to the puppy immediately. The other well same story as the elk hound. My dog Lilly also has fear aggression at times and it got worse. I sent her to a trainer and have been working with her for 1 mo now. A world of difference. The basic lesson is you need to be the dominant one and no BS at all from either dog. As I type this the puppy and lilly are peacefully lying in bed at my feet. It works. The basis of the training is I believe it is called 'proof' training. I paid for the training with what I would have spent boarding her during a trip. It was worth twice that.

**hhski** · 01-31-2008, 07:24 AM

check this out.
http://www.dogtrain.net/

**Mariya22** · 07-14-2008, 01:37 AM

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