too funny: Lieberman endorses McCain

[MassLiberal]

Not if the Democrat is advocating withdrawal from Iraq.

[BmillsSkier]

Yes, and we were "winning" in vietnam too....

as witty as you think your reply was, we were winning in Vietnam. The military, and the North Vietnamese both agree on that as well as historians. It wasn't until popular sentiment at home eroded support that the tide began to turn. Its hard to effectively run a war when it's not given support at home. Politicians pull punches, the military is handcuffed, and the effort becomes half-assed, not unlike your comment.

[Lonnie]

as witty as you think your reply was, we were winning in Vietnam. The military, and the North Vietnamese both agree on that as well as historians. It wasn't until popular sentiment at home eroded support that the tide began to turn. Its hard to effectively run a war when it's not given support at home. Politicians pull punches, the military is handcuffed, and the effort becomes half-assed, not unlike your comment.

Dude, please don't lecture me on Vietnam. I went to college at a military school and had 4 years of college level ROTC.

If you move beyond knee jerk reaction, the you'd see that the whole point of my post was the second half of your post. It doesn't matter what the military does in country, if the war is unpopular at home, then it's bad for the party that started the war. Those that cannot remember the past...

[seldon]

as witty as you think your reply was, we were winning in Vietnam. The military, and the North Vietnamese both agree on that as well as historians. It wasn't until popular sentiment at home eroded support that the tide began to turn. Its hard to effectively run a war when it's not given support at home. Politicians pull punches, the military is handcuffed, and the effort becomes half-assed, not unlike your comment.

Having just spent a semester studying the Vietnam war, which historians exactly are you referring to?
Herring - no.
Lawrence - no.
Appy - no.
McNamara himself - no.

Sure, there are some revisionists out there like Moyar and Lind who will disagree, but they are in the vast minority. I'm curious as to who you're alluding to.

[Grange]

their majority has led to approval ratings that bring into question whether or not these congessman's mothers even like them. well done.

from what I've seen in head to head polls hillary leads rudy with numbers in the 45 range to his 35 range. hardly wiping the floor as far as a poll is concerned. lastly who gives a shit about polls right now? people didn't even know who Bill Clinton was at this time.

the best part is that after everything hillary and obama have said against the war as "thesurgewithnoendinsight" continues to work they will be unable to use the success to their advantage. McCain will. So will Rudy. So will Thompson.

What that means is further house cleaning is in order. If the Republicans aren't careful more will be gone. Oh and the Democrats do need to get a back bone or they could be in trouble as well. They had their chance last Summer with the funding but caved.

10% is big and look at what Edwards does to Rudy. Larger than 10%.

By winning you mean what? Keeping the violence down? Bravo. So how long do we have to stay and at what numbers before we can leave and still keep the violence down? So when is the end in sight and what does it look like? All Rudy, Thompson, and even McCair to a point are advocating is stay the coarse and look how well that worked for Republicans in the last election.

[You Are Gay]

you know what's REALLY gay? People who make up aliases because they are to gay to call other people gay to their faces.

So I'm an alias. Big deal, homo. So what you're saying is people here who use thier real made up screen names to call people gay "to their faces" (via the internet) are ok? That's pretty gay. But then again, so are you.

I can't stand Mid-Westerners talking about terrorism.

I can't stand transplanted Montanans talking about terrorism. Fag.

Yep their lack of credibility on defense got the Dems voted to the majority in both the House and Senate.

That's right, turdpuncher. Now the House and the Senate have even lower approval ratings than the White House. They're doing just super! Everyone just loves the Democrats. Especially queers such as yourself.

[BmillsSkier]

Dude, please don't lecture me on Vietnam. I went to college at a military school and had 4 years of college level ROTC.

If you move beyond knee jerk reaction, the you'd see that the whole point of my post was the second half of your post. It doesn't matter what the military does in country, if the war is unpopular at home, then it's bad for the party that started the war. Those that cannot remember the past...

Glad to hear you went to military school and did ROTC in college, you'd have alot in common with my cousins from the Citadel.

I'm sure you are well versed in military strategy etc, but forgive me if I didn't glean your exact sentiments from your 8 word sentence fragment wittily quipping that we were "winning" the vietnam war. Glad to hear we agree on this point.

Having just spent a semester studying the Vietnam war, which historians exactly are you referring to?
Herring - no.
Lawrence - no.
Appy - no.
McNamara himself - no.


Sure, there are some revisionists out there like Moyar and Lind who will disagree, but they are in the vast minority. I'm curious as to who you're alluding to.

Where have I heard Yaley dick waving like this before???

[quote seldon]Will: Of course that's your contention. You're a first-year grad student; you just got finished reading some Marxian historian, Pete Garrison probably. You're gonna be convinced of that 'till next month when you get to James Lemon. Then you're going to be talking about how the economies of Virginia and Pennsylvania were entrepreneurial and capitalist way back in 1740. That's gonna last until next year; you're gonna be in here regurgitating Gordon Wood, talkin' about, you know, the pre-revolutionary utopia and the capital-forming effects of military mobilization.

Clark: Well, as a matter of fact, I won't, because Wood drastically underestimates the impact of social -

Will: "Wood drastically underestimates the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth"? You got that from Vickers' "Work in Essex County," page 98, right? Yeah, I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter? Or do you, is that your thing, you come into a bar, read some obscure passage and then pretend - you pawn it off as your own, as your own idea just to impress some girls, embarrass my friend?

[/seldon]





As you can see from my previous statement I never mentioned anything about majority of popular historians who sell textbooks subscribing to this theory. But to answer your question; Moyar, and some writings by Sorley.

The point, is that the comparison between Vietnam and Iraq is nothing more than a protest cliche.

[seldon]

Where have I heard Yaley dick waving like this before???

As you can see from my previous statement I never mentioned anything about majority of popular historians who sell textbooks subscribing to this theory. But to answer your question; Moyar, and some writings by Sorley.

The point, is that the comparison between Vietnam and Iraq is nothing more than a protest cliche.

The scene from Goodwill Hunting is about Harvard, just for the record.

To be honest, I was genuinely curious as to who you were alluding to by saying "historians" generally, since such a huge majority of the people I've read both through this class and on my own on the subject - everyone but the Reagan-era "noble cause" types - has taken the view that whatever restrictions public support may have placed on our military, the political deficiencies were both unsolvable by foreign involvement and sufficiently serious that no amount of military action could substitute for their independent resolution (problems like Thieu's government having no real legitimacy or public support outside of the cities).

As I'm taking the final on Friday, and the essay question worth half the final is: Was the Vietnam War a crime, tragedy, or noble cause? I'd actually like to hear the other side.

edit: knowing not enough to comment on Iraq, I leave aside completely the comparison between Iraq and Vietnam.

[Tourette Dude]

The scene from Goodwill Hunting is about Harvard, just for the record.

To be honest, I was genuinely curious as to who you were alluding to by saying "historians" generally, since such a huge majority of the people I've read both through this class and on my own on the subject - everyone but the Reagan-era "noble cause" types - has taken the view that whatever restrictions public support may have placed on our military, the political deficiencies were both unsolvable by foreign involvement and sufficiently serious that no amount of military action could substitute for their independent resolution (problems like Thieu's government having no real legitimacy or public support outside of the cities).

As I'm taking the final on Friday, and the essay question worth half the final is: Was the Vietnam War a crime, tragedy, or noble cause? I'd actually like to hear the other side.

I suggest looking at events in a more wholistic view: including historical global and national macroeconomic trends, access to industrial commodities and energy resources and internal social dynamics. Add this to D.D. Eisenhowers parting words and you will find the reason for EVERY modern war we have been involved in.


It was a crime and a tragedy.

[DharmaBum]

As I'm taking the final on Friday, and the essay question worth half the final is: Was the Vietnam War a crime, tragedy, or noble cause? I'd actually like to hear the other side.

.

Answer: All of the above, depending on who you ask.

[Tourette Dude]

Answer: All of the above, depending on who you ask.

the river knows....

[Lonnie]

Glad to hear you went to military school and did ROTC in college, you'd have alot in common with my cousins from the Citadel.

Yeah, Like a ring....

[warthog]

Yeah, Like a ring....

How was it? My brother in-law is heading in that direction. He has been to the school a couple times, yet has seemed more interested in what goes on at the school down the road- if you know what I mean. His uncle was secretary to the head of ground ops in the first phase of Iraq. His aunt is one of the few women colonols in the Army.

[Lonnie]

How was it? My brother in-law is heading in that direction. He has been to the school a couple times, yet has seemed more interested in what goes on at the school down the road- if you know what I mean. His uncle was secretary to the head of ground ops in the first phase of Iraq. His aunt is one of the few women colonols in the Army.

Sending PM....