Holy shit - a dude I used to work with got busted on "to catch a predator"!!!

[woodstocksez]

Blame the victim - a young, immature, and emotionally needy girl who may really not know what she's getting into or how her actions will affect her in the years to come.

Blame the perp - a grown man who, though he may indeed have emotional/mental problems knows what he's doing is wrong and completely inappropriate.

I'm confused, which one makes more sense?

There is such a thing as personal responsibility. More people taking some of it would go a long ways towards fixing problems like this.

I'm confused. I thought his point was that this is not necessarily an either/or situation and that, in some cases, responsibility may properly be doled out to both parties. I haven't heard anyone arguing for no (or, even, something less than primary) culpability on the part of the grown men, just that there are mitigating considerations that may make them not quite so heinous - and the girls not quite such helpless victims - as it's easy, popular and safe to make them out to be.

I also don't buy your characterization of young teenage girls in all cases. I was that age a few decades ago, but even then I knew girls of that age who were much more self-possessed (including sexually) than your characterization would admit. It's more honest and healthier to recognize this. It doesn't mean we have to sanction adults having sex with teens much their junior, just that we should, perhaps, react more appropriately.

Two more cents. Almost change for a nickel.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

Phill - are you serious? uhh, dumb question, I guess you are...

"Do we have the right to fuck with people because they are stupid, something which is no fault of their own?"

What the hell are you saying? That just because a person is dumb means they shouldn't suffer the consequences of their actions? Or, are you saying that just because they're stupid we as a society shouldn't try to stop them from engaging in activity that's potentially harmful to others? Or that if we were unsuccessful at stopping them in the first place then we shouldn't actively discourage them from doing it again?

Woodstocksez - Where did I paint all pre-teen and young teen girls with that brush? I would maintain that girls of 12 or 13 who are talking about having sex with older men on the internet and then inviting them to their homes for said activity are indeed confused, immature, and emotionally needy. It sort of goes without saying that since not every girl of that age is engaging in this behavior, they don't all share those characteristics.

I really don't care if the girl "asked for it" or encouraged it in any way. It's wrong, plain and simple. The perps know it's wrong, so bust their perverted asses. The onus is on the person in a position of power and with more life experience to make the right decision here, and the adult male certainly is in that position. If an adult male cannot make the right decisions concerning his actions towards young people for whatever reason, then he needs to suffer the consequences of those actions. Making excuses for him, blaming society or his stupidity or whatever only encourages more of this.

[woodstocksez]

Woodstocksez - I would maintain that girls of 12 or 13 who are talking about having sex with older men on the internet and then inviting them to their homes for said activity are indeed confused, immature, and emotionally needy. Since not every girl of that age is inviting strange old guys into their houses for sex, I'm guessing that not all girls of that age share those characteristics.

I don't know that the first part is always true, but even if it is, that's not the only way these kinds of encounters can take place. When I was a kid (long before the Internet), there were rumors of liasons between young teen girls and the "hip" high school science teacher. True or not, I don't know for sure. But, knowing the teacher some (both through personal observation and via others), I'd say he wasn't really a creep or a predator. Knowing the girls some, as well, I'd say they weren't confused, immature and emotionally needy, just emotionally and sexually precocious. I am not contending the relationships (assuming they did occur) were proper, just that it wasn't really a case of a wolf preying on helpless sheep.

[13]

It is beyond this. The girls in these "sting" ops are not just unlocked bicycles they are unlocked bicycles that actively help themselves get stolen. Ok that analogy sucks but what I am trying to say is these "girls" that the "criminals" solicited sex from are actively participating in building this inappropriate relationship. Ultimately as you said the "criminal" should realize this is wrong and not go through with it, just as a person should not steal a bike. But unlike a bike which is just sitting there these "girls" are encouraging an illicit relationship which in most cases probably would not occur with out their encouragement.

false again.

please see http://www.perverted-justice.com/ and read some of the transcripts.

i think you'll find that they do a pretty bang-up job of avoiding entrapment, which is what i think you're accusing these volunteers of. by the way, a lot of the volunteers are grown men who have no interest in "encouraging" illicit relationships a la nabokov's lolita.

[PaSucks]

Phill - are you serious? uhh, dumb question, I guess you are...

"Do we have the right to fuck with people because they are stupid, something which is no fault of their own?"

Of course we do! If a stupid person makes decisions that will harm others then as a society we must absolutely "fuck with them" to protect other people from them. Our jails are full of stupid people who were too dumb to think through the consequences of their actions or to find a better way to conduct themselves. Is not putting someone in jail "fucking with them?" Should we just give 'em a pass because they're stupid? "Okay dumbshit bankrobber, it's obvious you're too moronic to come up with a plan to make $1500 other than to point a gun in a tellers face and demand she give it to you, so we'll let you go on account of you being stupid and hope you've learned your lesson."

I believe Phill was questioning our right to put the "stupid people" on public display simply because of their stupidity, not the fact that child molesters belong in jail. While we certainly have the right, it is pretty indicitive of the insecuriteis we as a society seem to have developed. If the show was as simple as just "fucking with stupid people," it would be akin to a show poking fun at retarded people. You can't blame people for a lack of inteligence. It isn't my fault I don't understand quantom physics, and it isn't a retarded persons fault he can't tie his shoe.

However, pedophiles do understand that what they are doing is wrong. They may not understand the complexities of how emotional damage is inflicted on a developing brain, but they know it's wrong, they know it's ilegal, and they do it anyways. Pedophiles suffer from mental disease illness of some sort, no doubt, and that is NOT their fault. The fact is, most pedophiles are pedophiles because they were molested, or worse, as a child themselves. While they are certainly not responsible for their urges, they absolutely must be held responsible for their actions. I have all the respect in the world for someone that has a mental disorder and does what is required to fix the problem. Their are doctors out there that specialize in treating pedophiles, cures are out there. If someone has a problem that can only hurt other people and they do nothing about it, they deserve to fry.

[13]

Their are doctors out there that specialize in treating pedophiles, cures are out there.

there are? last i checked, even castration wasn't considered a "cure."

do you know something i don't?

[PaSucks]

there are? last i checked, even castration wasn't considered a "cure."

do you know something i don't?

A lifetime of counseling and psychiatric therapy, combined with proper medication to treat depression, anxiety, whatever else the person may be suffering from. "Cure" may not be the best way, but the point was that mental illness is treatable and that nobody should be ashamed to get help before they hurt someone. It is possible to avoid being a piece of shit.

[bklyn]

Next on TGR...

Dress your underage daughters in Burkas, because grown men might think they are sexy and try to seduce them on the internet.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

PaSucks - Re: your post @ 6:47 - I believe we are in agreement. I hope that's indeed what Phill was trying to say, it's only too bad he couldn't actually say it. Or maybe we're wrong. Phill?

Only one point of contention I have with what you wrote, and what others have said about the nature of the TV show in question: I believe that if this show opens the eyes of one parent or child to the possibilities and thus averts a situation like this, then I feel it's worth it.

I should note that such is not normally my position on things. I just tend to feel protective of children and if we go a little overboard to keep them safe, that's okay with me.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

bklyn - I was thinking that exact same thing myself, the way some people talk.

[PaSucks]

Next on TGR...

Dress your underage daughters in Burkas, because grown men might think they are sexy and try to seduce them on the internet.

Burkas are hot! I'm going to seduce that woman!

Only one point of contention I have with what you wrote, and what others have said about the nature of the TV show in question: I believe that if this show opens the eyes of one parent or child to the possibilities and thus averts a situation like this, then I feel it's worth it.

While I agree that it may help awaken parents to the perils facing their children, and that is a good thing, the shows true intent is to shock and entertain. I don't blame them for it, they are a business and obviously a sucesful one.

[woodstocksez]

Next on TGR...

Dress your underage daughters in Burkas, because grown men might think they are sexy and try to seduce them on the internet.

Not me. If I have a daughter, I'm making sure she's in a thong bikini by the time she's ten. Never too early, I say.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

...
While I agree that it may help awaken parents to the perils facing their children, and that is a good thing, the shows true intent is to shock and entertain. I don't blame them for it, they are a business and obviously a sucesful one.

I wouldn't argue that. TV sucks, in general.

[72Twenty]

I was watching it the other night and they showed a transcript of one fella, and it said something like "im in ur hottub giving you anal".

And I thought to myself... wow, jer really is an internet perv.

[japollner]

I cant condone adults sleeping with kids...but I agree with the making a spectacle of them.


The people on the show are sick...its a mental sickness....

...lets throw skin cancer patients up on tv and call them leather face and make fun of them for not using sun tan lotion.


Some shows make me sick purely because of why they are popular. Lets put the guy who lost his legs in a car accident in the town pool and see what happens...

[leroy jenkins]

Blame the victim - a young, immature, and emotionally needy girl who may really not know what she's getting into or how her actions will affect her in the years to come.

Blame the perp - a grown man who, though he may indeed have emotional/mental problems knows what he's doing is wrong and completely inappropriate.

I'm confused, which one makes more sense?

There is such a thing as personal responsibility. More people taking some of it would go a long ways towards fixing problems like this.

Aw fuck that, I started donig drugs around that age, and no one coerced, or even encouraged me to do so. Maybe its just because thats the age when kids usually start trying to break away from your parents control and expeiriance things on your own. Somehow it is viewed as acceptable for high schoolers to fuck each other as much as they want, but a 19 year old with a 15 year old is a "monster". I think its a bit weird, and not really my cup of tea, but I'd hardly call that monstrous.


Our culture is so hung up on sex. As a culture, we're obsessed with it. Getting laid by some random person you have no emotional attachment to is supposed to be like the coolest thing ever and the meaning of life. Like it or not, the media portrays YOUNG girls as sex symbols, yet everyone acts like they don't notice. Its the whole giant pink elephant in the room and no one will talk about it thing.

Thats why people watch these shows, is because they're obsessed with sex, and they enjoy witnessing public humiliation. It disgusts me.

[leroy jenkins]

Lets put the guy who lost his legs in a car accident in the town pool and see what happens...

You ever considered a career as a TV producer?

Super serial.