Sundance DH course difficulty?

[shmoesmith]

Just tried this sucker on Monday with Tigerstripe40. The AS-X seemed to easily handle every section, and I rode every section except the jump that sends you over that diagonal log. I really liked the course, but was apprehensive about taking it with much speed since I was on platform pedals for the first time in about 4 years. I felt REALLY REALLY disconnected from my bike and felt like my feet were going to fly off the pedals at any given moment.

Anyway, I was looking at maybe starting some beginner level super D type courses or maybe lighter DH stuff on the AS-X. I think that once I get the feel of platform pedals again, I will be ok on a course like the one at Sundance. I think if I had been clipped in I would have felt comfortable taking it quite a bit faster, as well as hitting the log jump...however, from what I understand you don't want to be clipped in for a DH race.

Anyway, since this is the only DH course I have ever tried, I was wondering how difficult it was considered. Is it similar to what I would find on other downhill courses at say Deer Valley, or is it pretty unique. I'm just trying to figure out where that course stands so I can figure out if i have the minimum skills needed to get into racing.

[crashnburn'd]

however, from what I understand you don't want to be clipped in for a DH race.

I know nothing about Sundance, but I ride clipped in for DH all the time, whether racing or just riding... It's a matter of preference and comfort really. I was never able to find a shoe/flat pedal combo that I liked and was constantly shuffling.

[slippy]

I rode that trail Sunday with clipless pedals from my XC bike, it was fine. But I'd really like to hear what others run for DH clipless....like what Mr. Altagirl or bagtagley were using at Bountiful that one day?

[crashnburn'd]

I ride Crank Brothers Mallets. Really like them, but you still have to be careful of your feet because if you smack the bottom of the pedal, the spring opens up and you can come unclipped.

[altagirl]

I rode that trail Sunday with clipless pedals from my XC bike, it was fine. But I'd really like to hear what others run for DH clipless....like what Mr. Altagirl or bagtagley were using at Bountiful that one day?

I use Mallets for DH (and on my AS-X), Mr.AG uses Shimano clipless platforms (can't remember the model), and I can't rembember what bags is using.

I'd say the Sundance DH is definitely on the easy end of the spectrum for DH courses. Though many have a separate beginner course, or a sport/beginner DH course that is easier. So - as a pro/expert course, I'd say it's easy, for a sport/beginner course it's reasonably difficult.

[Shepherd Wong]

The Sundance course is of pretty average difficulty compared to the courses I have ridden. I think the log drop you are talking about is kinda difficult because it's side hill before it and hard to get speed and balance because of the uphill right before it. You can roll it, but I found jumping it a little tricky. It's fast and open compared to some of the dh courses around here. Did they have that jump toward the end? I found that kinda scary because I'm a chicken beginner and I was tired at that point. When I rode it last year it was really new and a lot of loose dirt still on the trail. Here is the last jump.


If you make it to the transition it's really steep and smooth, but the scariest part is the landing is long and you're really cooking at the bottom when you transition back to flat, I would always bottom out hard on something at the transition.

[slippy]

I use Mallets for DH (and on my AS-X), Mr.AG uses Shimano clipless platforms (can't remember the model), and I can't rembember what bags is using.

I'd say the Sundance DH is definitely on the easy end of the spectrum for DH courses. Though many have a separate beginner course, or a sport/beginner DH course that is easier. So - as a pro/expert course, I'd say it's easy, for a sport/beginner course it's reasonably difficult.

Thanks!

And if that's a beginner course, I have a new respect for DHers. I want to see a 'hard' DH course now. What is DV like?

[Ski Monkey]

I ride time's on my DH bike normally but so far this season I've been riding platforms and I more or less hate it. I like the flexibility platforms give me at times but i hate the disconnect I have from my bike on jumps and high speed sections. In angel fire i got bounced off my pedals during one of the high speed sections and wrapped myself around a pine tree. Not fun. I'll be moving back to my time's as soon as possible and eventually I'm thinking about moving to mallets since they offer a better platform than the atac z's.

[skiguide]

after riding Sundance much of the day on my Sinister +flats, then switching to my mallets on the last run/Archies loop.

I can safely say i'm done with flats on the DH bike... it was nice getting used the bike on them, and being able to bail out quick, but now i think riding them is more of a hinderance than anything while trying to up my DH game.

missed my mallets too much for the stability factor and just overall control. I also feel like i can get out of them fast if need be, or just stand on the platform if i had to.

only time i think the flats will go back on the DH will be when i'm on a course/trail way out of my comfort zone.

and oh, that sundance DH course is pretty easy, w/ the exception of the off angle log drop, but I don't it'll be that hard to do, once i actually learn to send stuff

[brettf]

I'm thinking about moving to mallets since they offer a better platform than the atac z's.

FYI - Mallets are very weak. I've gone through several pairs. The mag and the standard version. Broken platforms, bent spindles, etc... The Shimano DHX (is that the one??) is a solid pedal for hot, clipped-in DH action. Just my two cents...

[Ski Monkey]

FYI - Mallets are very weak. I've gone through several pairs. The mag and the standard version. Broken platforms, bent spindles, etc... The Shimano DHX (is that the one??) is a solid pedal for hot, clipped-in DH action. Just my two cents...

Yeah, i've definitely heard about durability issues with them but I want to stay away from the spd system.

[crashnburn'd]

FYI - Mallets are very weak. I've gone through several pairs. The mag and the standard version. Broken platforms, bent spindles, etc... The Shimano DHX (is that the one??) is a solid pedal for hot, clipped-in DH action. Just my two cents...

There are tradeoffs with everything. With eggbeaters, I prefer the release and find them a lot easier to get into than Shimanos on the off chance that I have to put my foot down. Never had the platforms break, I have bent spindles though.

[Shepherd Wong]

Thanks!

And if that's a beginner course, I have a new respect for DHers. I want to see a 'hard' DH course now. What is DV like?

I dunno I've ridden the DV sport/beginner course, and I think it was a bunch easier than Sundance. The NCS course at DV is harder than Sundance, but not significantly for me, though I've only rode it handful of times top to bottom without stopping, and never in a race(I happly race sport). It depends on your riding style and what you are comfortable with. The Sundance course I found really tiring. Riding it in one continuous run from top to bottom at race speed is different then just riding sections at a time. Stuff that is pretty easy normally becomes really hard when your arms are pumped and you're mentally and physically exhausted. Also it starts about a 20 minute hike from the top of the lift. That extra top section is loose, slow and steep. I was already breathing really hard by the time I got back to the top of the lift. For me all the tougher parts of the Sundance course came at the worst times. I was also riding it when it first opened for the first race there, and there was tons of loose dirt everywhere.

[phatfreeheeler]

I'm no DH specialist, and will likely never race DH, but as the over analyzing type that I am, I understand why some people prefer flats. Thanks JoshP for the loaners at the B, they changed my whole opinion about flats. I’m starting to really like them. I think they are teaching me better bike handling skills. I even rode flats most of last Sunday at Sundance and have been hitting some smaller jumps on them and feeling way more confident, even tweaking the bike out again. You learn to use more body and hand movement to guide the bike up and over stuff. Also, the fact that you can’t as easily pull the back of the bike up means that if your body goes forward because the bike slows, you “usually” don’t pull the bike up with you, and often what would have been an over the bars endo, becomes a simple bobble. As an even bigger bonus, in my mind, you can bail straight off the back if need be. With clips, side dismounts seem like the easiest option.

I use simple Eastern BMX flats I got for $20 which I added longer set screws from Lowes to. I use 5.10 shoes with stealth rubber and the grip is awesome in every way but straight up FYI - Marzocchi shoes are the same just re-badged.

The flip side I also can see. Dropping a foot in corners or rocks may give you momentary stability, but it’s a quick way to break a foot or blow a knee. Also, I don’t know if any flat shoes with grip like 5.10’s have nearly the protection of the Addidas Hematoma’s, and as Ski Monkey said, you can get knocked off them in really rough stuff. Broken toes are also a real possibility in DH racing. I’m trying to force myself to just learn to ride clean. If I’m drifting a corner, I try to do it still on the pedals. I was psyched when I started nailing that corner after the hip “jump” at Sundance. I do occasionally pull my own feet off while climbing rough terrain (or just in forgetful moments) but it’s getting less and less frequent. Keep in mind, I really like just riding flowy, so I’m often not riding as fast as the “downhillers” in the group, and I'm not ruining a race time if I get knocked off. I don’t care how long it takes to get down a trail, I care about how many dabs I do and if I hit the airs smooth. It's what puts a on my face.

When I do clip in, I have Mallets and 661 shoes for all my bikes. I find the Candies do not keep my feet in as well in rocky terrain. I always use clipless for XC.

I know at least a couple very, very fast downhillers who will never use clipless, so it's obviously a preference thing. My goal is to get very comfortable with both and use them for different things. In less than 4 days on flats they were already starting to feel good, so I wouldn't decide after just a couple days. I believe the more tricks you have in your bag, the better the rider you will be.

[altagirl]

FYI - Mallets are very weak. I've gone through several pairs. The mag and the standard version. Broken platforms, bent spindles, etc... The Shimano DHX (is that the one??) is a solid pedal for hot, clipped-in DH action. Just my two cents...

I've beaten the shit out of my original pair of mallets for 3+ years now and I've never had an issue. And they release more consistently and the platform is better IMO than the Shimanos I used to use.

It's just personal preference.

[Particle]

FYI - Mallets are very weak. I've gone through several pairs. The mag and the standard version. Broken platforms, bent spindles, etc... The Shimano DHX (is that the one??) is a solid pedal for hot, clipped-in DH action. Just my two cents...

Can you warranty bent spindles? I think one of mine is bent, you can see it wobble when threading it into the crank...but I haven't bothered doing anything about it.

[altagirl]

Thanks!

And if that's a beginner course, I have a new respect for DHers. I want to see a 'hard' DH course now. What is DV like?

I've never ridden the upper part of the Sundance DH course. No idea what that's like. (I haven't raced there, just ridden the DH course down from the top of the lift).

But I think the DV expert course (the local course) is way harder than anything at Sundance. Super loose, lots of consecutive obstacles and a few off camber roots and trees that want to throw you off trail. I think Bountiful is harder with the loose/steep/off camber stuff, esp. going into wake-up call. And the DV national course is wicked hard in a few spots. Psycho spin gets gnarly when it's washed out, etc. But I guess it depends on what you're comforatble with. Quite honestly, racing fast down Pinchflat Alley (the doubletrack with the ruts) scares me more than anything else, because unfortunately I'm too familiar with how much it hurts to eat shit at that speed on that road.

IIRC, the DV beginner course is down Aspen Slalom to the bottom of Fire Swamp/Thieves (joining it at the shack jump). It's not super hard, but it's got a few nasty switchbacks and such. It's fun to ride, but I don't think it would be all that easy to race.

And I'd say every DH course I've ever raced is harder when you race it and are going into sections tired. I don't think Sundance would be any different in that respect.

[yentna]

I always ride clipped in on DH races (Crankbrothers, more float for my knees and somewhat easier to unclip in a crash), but there have been a couple instances where I wished I knew how to ride well on platforms, namely super muddy courses where once unclipped, well, you finish the race unclipped. Like here:



So there's justification for being able to do both at least somewhat well.

[slippy]

I guess I've been clueless on what DH racing really is. I went to one NORBA National in 1996? at Mt Spokane, it was fast-rolling doubletrack.

[rideit]

Slippy, WC DH courses have 30-50 foot mandatory death airs on them now.
Picture Lithium and Crater/Jimmy's mom as being beginner trails, basically.

[altagirl]

I guess I've been clueless on what DH racing really is. I went to one NORBA National in 1996? at Mt Spokane, it was fast-rolling doubletrack.

Yeah, it used to be like the Kamikaze race at Mammoth. Just flying down a gravel road as fast as you can. Now it's about mixing up as many technical things as you can - rocks, drops, berms, flat corners. I think they try to have both high speed and low speed technical sections. But it's way more technical than it used to be.

Here's part of the Brianhead National course:



And I'm on flat pedals there. I was dabbing feet all over the place in the rock garden. I agree with Yentna in that it's nice to have both (and be reasonably comfortable on both) so you can pick what's best for you based on the course.

edit: and rideit - the biggest mandatory air I've seen is the 8' or so drop at Durango. (Of course you can walk around it if you want to, but the downclimb looked scarier than just riding the damn thing).

[Mr. Altagirl]

Shoe,
The DH course at Sundance is fairly easy to ride, racing it will get your heart coming through your chest and you will want to puke at the end. Hit that side log with one pedal stroke and you clear the landing with ease; more speed and you don't even feel it. The hardest part of that hill is the dust when you catch up to someone, brutal. The hip jump under the lift is FUN!!!!!

Most beginner/sport courses are fun and are made to keep you flowing. Rarely do they have any mandatory air but will have options if you want. The Expert/pro courses are getting to be very technical with high speed being needed for everything. Your best bet, follow some riders that are faster than you and emulate what they are doing. We are lucky here in that we have a LOT of really fast riders around that you can follow and learn from.

I use both clipless (new Shimano DX's; LOVE them, use them 90% of the time on my DH rig, 100% of the time on my AS-X/Prophet) and flats. The key to riding flat pedal on rough terrain is to have a very grippy shoe with the right kind of sole on a good off-road pedal. I use 5.10's on extremely sharp pedals and have more of an issue of getting my feet in the wrong position and not being able to adjust because they are stuck on the pedal than loosing grip. If you want to run flat's, go get the right shoe/pedal combination and you will see a world of difference (don’t use regular riding shoes with a rigid plastic sole, they won’t work well at all). Remember to use good shin guards if you are going to use flats, you will need them at some point (we all have scars to prove it).

[SLSki]

Check any of the earthed series. Pretty big airs that are definitely mandatory if you plan on staying sponsored.

[slippy]

Jimmy's mom as being beginner trails, basically.

Basically, it is...for a 'freeriding' trail and Lithium is borderline beginner....although I didn't think that the first few times down it. I just didn't know how rocky and hi-speed DH courses were, that's all.

I think I need to buy some Earthed videos. And some Shimano DXs. And some shoes to go with it. And some grippy shoes for my flats. And some upper body armor. And new DH tires. And some milk, maybe 2%? Should I really go 1%? Maybe buy a quart instead of a jug? Man, I'm thirsty.

Oh yeah, and a truck for shuttling, too.

[crashnburn'd]