Review of the new Dynafit Zzero4 and 3 Carbon alpine touring boots

[LeeLau]

pechelman - thx again for the keen eye. No sarcasm, I'm grateful for that. Will try to get my hands on the boots again to take a look at them myself and take a closeup shot

As for the lateral stiffness, all I can say about this boot is wow (as well as what I said in the article).

[LeeLau]

http://www.backcountryworld.com/show...ed=1#post23866

re the cuff limiters

[wilcox510]

Lee, on some other forum I noticed where you commented that the cuff of the Zzero is about 2 cm lower than that of the Megaride. It doesnt seem that you think this is a negative in any way? I guess if the cuff is that stiff and the liner is stiff too, a bit shorter cuff isnt an issue? In the picture on your review with all 4 boots at a side angle, it looks like the Zzero is actually taller than the g-ride, but maybe my eyes just suck.

[telechuck]

Thanks Lee and others. It looks like I will have some sweet green boots to go with the bros next year. Should be a fab set up both color wise and performance wise (you decide which is more important )

[LeeLau]

Lee, on some other forum I noticed where you commented that the cuff of the Zzero is about 2 cm lower than that of the Megaride. It doesnt seem that you think this is a negative in any way? I guess if the cuff is that stiff and the liner is stiff too, a bit shorter cuff isnt an issue? In the picture on your review with all 4 boots at a side angle, it looks like the Zzero is actually taller than the g-ride, but maybe my eyes just suck.

I didn't know if the cuff height would be an issue and it turned out that it wasn't. The Dynafit boot is simply that stiff. I can't emphasize enough how much it surprised me to unbuckle the boots when I thought i was on an open slope, then hit wet slide debris accidentally in the whiteout and yet have decent control - I was totally relying on the boot to save my inattentiveness.

If you want stiff and burly yet light PERIOD, then there is no question this is the boot. I actually think the boot may be too stiff - FOR ME (emphasis intentional).

Again, the lateral stiffness in particular is unreal. Like alpine boot stiff

The front cuff of the Dynafit 4 buckle is shorter then the Spirit 4 and Mega Ride/G-ride. The Spirit 4 and the Mega Ride/G-rides front cuff were all about the same height. The Dynafit Zzero carbon's, Mega Ride/G-ride and the Spirit 4's rear cuff were all about the same height. It might be tough to tell from the picture as I took it with a wide angle and there's a bit of curvature at the edge of the pictures.

[Pierre LeCouloir]

Sweet Georgia Brown! I hope someone posts when these things come available in North America. Does anyone know if the date is still October?

[LeeLau]

I got the Dynafits back and just wanted to confirm that there are indeed cuff-limiters. They only work when the boot is engaged in ski mode in the most acute forward lean position. Thanks for pointing that out to me from the pictures.

and to answer pechelmans question, that little bump on the back of the cuff is a positive stop.

It is not designed it with the possibility to slip between the cuff and lower part of the shell.

[upallnight]

Lee:
Thanks for bumping this. For some reason, when you first posted it I did not see the linked review that you wrote.

I checked it out and wanted to say that I think it was as well-written a boot review as I've ever seen. Thanks for taking the time and sharing.

[LeeLau]

bump for jon turner

[jon turner]

thanks for bumping LeeLau. Missed this one. I'm curious how different the carbon and pebax boots are in stiffness. The Dynafit rep I talked to seemed to think the difference in flex is pretty small, and most of the increased stiffness in the carbon version was in lateral stiffness. personally, i do a bit of hiking, climbing, and touring with my boots, so the carbon's might be too stiff for me. Hopefully, someone will get a chance to try them both out and comment on them comparatively at some point.

[harpo-the-skier]

Can anyone comment on how the new Dynafit boots fit vis a vis the Megaride. Are they about the same width? If I am a 27.0 Mega, what size would I be in a Zzero?

[LeeLau]

I'm a size 27 Megaride and fit a 27.5 Dynafit but that's all I had the chance to try. I suspect I would have fit a 27.0 Dynafit

[harpo-the-skier]

LL, could you tell me in more detail the differences between the Zzero thermo form and multi form (lace up) liner? I am particularly interested in the MF liner. You said in you review it was a hybrid liner. I checked with Dynafit USA and they said it was traditional lace up liner without any thermo foam.

Could you confirm if it has any thermo foam in it, and what portion of the liner has the thermo foam. Also, how far down do the laces go? Do they they have any reinforcements to stiffen the tongue?

I am asking these question because I am very pleased with the Garmont Gfit 3 thermofoam liner w/laces. It has pretty much solved all the fit problems I had with both traditional laced liners and thermofoam liners without laces.

Edit: LL, thanks for the info on the Mega/ZZero sizing.

[Pierre LeCouloir]

Anybody else see the Backcountry Magazine review of the Zzero 4? I'm a little pissed that they didn't specify the liner tested, and I don't recall that they distinguished between the Pebax and carbon shells. Long story short, the BC Mag reviewers did not feel that that the Zzero 4 provided as much drive as, say, the Megaride. LeeLau's review, which is much more in depth and thoughtful, came to a very different conclusion, and I'm inclined to trust him on this, but the cuff height is still bothering me. Anyone else have a chance to touch these bad boys yet?

[LeeLau]

LL, could you tell me in more detail the differences between the Zzero thermo form and multi form (lace up) liner? I am particularly interested in the MF liner. You said in you review it was a hybrid liner. I checked with Dynafit USA and they said it was traditional lace up liner without any thermo foam.

Could you confirm if it has any thermo foam in it, and what portion of the liner has the thermo foam. Also, how far down do the laces go? Do they they have any reinforcements to stiffen the tongue?

I am asking these question because I am very pleased with the Garmont Gfit 3 thermofoam liner w/laces. It has pretty much solved all the fit problems I had with both traditional laced liners and thermofoam liners without laces.

Edit: LL, thanks for the info on the Mega/ZZero sizing.

Whoops - just saw this.

I got the information about the thermo forming from the dynafit catalog that I posted. I don't have the liners on me to confirm but it sure looked to me like the bottom part of the liner was thermo

The laces go down halfway to the instep. There was no tongue reinforcement.



Here's a picture fyi from the review -


Full review is here of course and at the doglotion link. Bigger pictures - http://www.leelau.net/2007/dynafitreviewmarch2007/

[LeeLau]

Anybody else see the Backcountry Magazine review of the Zzero 4? I'm a little pissed that they didn't specify the liner tested, and I don't recall that they distinguished between the Pebax and carbon shells. Long story short, the BC Mag reviewers did not feel that that the Zzero 4 provided as much drive as, say, the Megaride. LeeLau's review, which is much more in depth and thoughtful, came to a very different conclusion, and I'm inclined to trust him on this, but the cuff height is still bothering me. Anyone else have a chance to touch these bad boys yet?

I haven't read it yet so can't really comment although wilcox was kind enough to let me know about it. You should check the couloirmag forum discussion which talks about the stiffness of the dynafit boot from other people's perspective too.

I guess i should get on the Scarpa Spirit 4 review as people are thinking about winter now!

Here's a shot of the different cuffs of the dynafit ZZero and Scarpa Spirit 4. Note that the difference between rear cuffs isn't that big but there's quite a difference in front cuff.

I still found the Dynafit stiffer but the Scarpa to be nicer in walk mode

[wilcox510]

Wow, that pic makes it look like the Dynafit cuff is a couple inches shorter than the Spirit 4, at least on the inside of the boot. I just tried on some Spirit 4s, if they werent so high volume I'd be pretty interested. The cuff is tall and much stiffer than my Megarides, and the walk mode was pretty impressive. Just too roomy.

[LeeLau]

hey justin - i should add this picture too

[Pierre LeCouloir]

Here's a link to the abstract of this year's Dynafit bootline. LeeLau posted it elsewhere, but hopefully this saves him some intarweb bandwidths:

http://rapidshare.com/files/53613078/DynafitBoots.pdf

[wilcox510]

I just tried on the Zzero 4 C-TF (wow, thats a complicated name) at a local alpine shop who has some of the best bootfitters around. For comparisons sake, I am currently in Megarides from 3 years ago, with Dalbello Krypton Pro tongues (the stiffest ones), and Krypton ID Gold Liners. The Dynafit was lighter, but softer in forward flex (again, I have very stiff tongues on my Megarides), probably just a bit stiffer than stock Megarides in forward flex. The Dynafits felt stiffer laterally. The plastic on the Dynafit is significantly stiffer when you just flex it in your hands. The sides of the cuff of the Dynafit are a bit shorter than the Megaride (maybe 6-8 mm), the rear of the cuffs are pretty much the same height. The liner in the Dynafit seemed better than the Garmont liners, but not nearly as good as an Intuition.

They had the Zzero 4 U-MF too, but not in my size so I didnt get to try it on. The tongue on these seemed stiffer than the C-TF. Liner seems pretty much like an alpine liner. According to the bootfitter, the U-MF is stiffer than the C-TF, but the more noticable difference is that "it just skis more like an alpine boot". Apparently the polyurethane gives it much more of an alpine boot feel, he said it was clearly the best skiing AT boot he's tried. The difference in the weight of shells of the two boots is minimal.

Overall, my in-store impression of this boot is somewhere in the middle between Lee Lau's and the Backcountry reviewers. The U-MF is about $170 cheaper than the C-TF ($730 vs $560 or something like that)

[LeeLau]

Thanks for that wilcox. wow did you ever beef up your Megarides. The Dynafits lateral stiffness really came into play when skiing them. Amazing boot when carving in the groomers and laying railroad tracks (there I said it - but how else are you supposed to assess lateral stiffness??)

[Idris]

I see a green hinged tung in your tongues in your Spirit 4's in the photo. Is this a choice or didn't yours come with the black stiffer tongues as well??? I tried my green ones once and then threw them out. The boots are way stiffer with the black ones.

[LeeLau]

idris - it was a choice. I tried the Scarpa with the black tongue and the stock touring soft green tongue. They were definitely stiffer with the black tongues

[blueneon]

I've seen a lot of questions and doubts on this thread... so I'll give you some of my views...
1) cuff height of zzero vs megaride... it's the same... on the picture from lee you can easily see the difference in geometry and inclination... I mean if you measure the two cuffs (of the same size) from top to the bottom with a tool you'll see they are the same... from megaride and zzero there are many different variables that might look the two heights different from a pictures.. as different forward inclinations, slightly different cuff pivot point, slight different inside last... so in the reality believe me they're quite the same.. just few millimiters difference for fir reasons...
2) ZZero 4U vs 4C ... the difference is coming from the shell/cuff material, Polyurethan Vs Pebax + the side reinforcment, Nylon (Rilsan) Vs Carbon fiber... Difference in terms of performance are... weight, pu shells are more than 100gr heavier. Temperature materials variation... what it means... that if you try the C version or all the boots made with pebax they perform mostly the same in all temperature condition... while PU become dramatically stiffer when it's very cold... what it means? ... that if it's very cold PU become stiffer than C but the C performs very much the same in all condidion... Also PU is a bit more "active" so it means that it gives back the flex more reactive than pebax... but this is a difference only few skiers in the world can feel...
Then there are the carbon reinforcment which adds a LOT of lateral support but you can feel the difference only when skiing...
3) Tongue stiffnes... sure the Scarpa black (downhill) tongue is stiffer and somehow also the last generation of megaride has a stiffer tongue than the zzero... but... is this a good thing???... a stiff tongue means a LOT of more power needed to flex the boot while going uphill ... and not very much increase in downhill... but this depends a lot from what the skier is looking for.. most of the skier require a certain front flex if they are skiing on fresh powder, grooms etc... super stiff front flex or zero front flex... is normally required when you're skiing on icy steep alpine downhill tracks...
The right is the compromise... making a boots with a great structure and internal last ... and with a tongue which allows "the right" flex... which means agility up-hill and performance downhill...
And not making the opposite... as most of the scarpa's boots are...
4) ZZero MF liners... there is no thermoforming foam inside... they're traditional lace-up touring liners... From the pictures posted from lee (samples) the real production will have an additional lace loops on the 45° area... These are very comfortable, durable, breathable liners...
Heavier than TF,G-Fit or Intuition liners... but much more durable and comfortable...
In the European market, especially Ger-Aus-Swiss most of the sales are on these liners... because people are less interested in weight and customizabiliy... they look more into comfort and durability... also true that most of the shops in usa are really specialist and can fit the thermoformable liners at best.. which is difficult to do in european shops..
5) TF vs G-Fit vs Scarpa Intuition ... what to say, all the thermoformable liners in the market are a compromise... they feature lightness and thermoform-ability despite to durability and moisture transfer from the foot to outside.. All the 3 producers are doing most of the liners from the same supplier...a french manufacturer which owns a well done patent on this technology... and so there is really no big difference between all of them.. Just Scarpa where using overlap construction instead of tongue construction... but this has, from my point of view, more bad than good points... Also scarpa, since last season, is using in USA Intuition liners... and for the coming season they are using them in all the models...
These liners...from what I know, are harder and more durable but has less thermoforming ability... I can't say what's best and what's worst...
What I can say is that Scarpa for example...in their racing/more expensive boot they're using the "french made" thermo liner .. and also with tongue construction... So no intuition and no overlap on their more exclusive boot..
Some might comment that they use the overlap liners on the "more downhill" oriented boot and the tongue in the more "climbing oriented" ... but just as example... which is the Alpine downhill boot using overlap liners?.. also world cup racing boots have tongue construction liners...

Then guys... most of the game is about trying the boots and chose what's the best for you... because they're all so different because they follow different interpretation and comments and feelings might be very different from who's using them...

Have Fun!

[wilcox510]

Blueneon - do you work for Dynafit? Are the tongues on the U stiffer than on the C (I was told they were)? Since this is a new boot, and there has obviously been some question as to how stiff it actually is I suggest a TGR forum discount, you know, for testing purposes, I'd happily volunteer my services

A while back there was discussion about the cuff limiters which can be seen in the picture Pechelman put up. FYI, I was trying on some Scarpa Spirit 4s yesterday, and they too have these. They are lower down on the cuff, and can't be seen clearly on the pics on this thread, but the pair I tried on had them. When flexing the Zzeros, I couldnt really feel a stopping point, like some have people mentioned in regards to the cuff limiters on last years Aero Freerides.