Avalanche Flotation safety device prototypes

[jtwassoc]

Thanks also to LeeLau and his crew who we got to demonstrate a device for in the Best Western Motel hot tub. Lee it was great to hang with you but the explosive diarrhea in the tub was not cool bro............

[Trackhead]

Looks great, and thanks for posting this.

When do you project they will be available for sale?

[jtwassoc]

Possibly by next season. Possibly, not for sure.

[Imz]

Sounds interesting; I'm lead designer for product development & engineering firm in SF. Among other projects, I've been involved in a bunch of wearable computer, body armor and backpack projects for the military which all required quick/ emergency release capabilities. If you're interested in getting a hand, send a PM.

Good luck...

[Treepinner]

Yes we have used control dummies and even control snowmobiles without flotation devices attached in the past. The problem is that it is commonly known that people are buried by avalanches, so the control dummy doesn't end up serving a purpose. It's also a missed chance to test another flotation device. Some of you might question our decision to stop using control dummies without flotation devices in the test, but we felt it was best for the testing.

Since nearly all backcountry skiers wear a pack, it would be useful to know if your airbag offers anything over a standard 40 liter with a down parka loosely stuffed. It appears your bag isn't much bigger, if at all. It appears the only way to use this with a pack is to wear it in front, which is less than ideal, but the combination may offer the best protection.

Does one of those dummies have skis on? If so, was it the 200 pounder and did the skis stay attached? Seems like using a 100-pound dummy is a waste of time and even 150 is of dubious value.

[jtwassoc]

The difference between an inflated lift bag and a backpack is simple, the backpack doesn't hold air so it doesn't float to the surface of the avalanche like a lift bag does. A backpack may have some minimal effect inside the slide as far as moving you towards the surface goes, but it is nothing compared to a lift bag.

The power of an inflated lift bag was demonstrated to our crew last summer, out in the middle of Lake Tahoe. We have a second lab in Tahoe and decided to test the bursting properties of our nylon welds, and our harness strength, by lowering an inflated lift bag down into Lake Tahoe with weights attached to the harness. Using 290 pounds of dead weight we were able to lower the lift bag to a depth of 30 feet. The rear corner of a fairly large boat was hanging pretty close to the water line and our ropes were peaking. The point being that it took an immense amount of weight and effort to keep the lift bag down. Its surfacing power is amazing. A backpack simply doesn’t hold the air.

We were also able to affix the device to the bottom of our backpacks where it didn’t impede anyone while working or skiing all day long.

None of our dummies wore skis or snowboards, maybe one of these years we will attempt this. As far as 100 and 150 pound dummies go, we wanted to test for children and smaller adults as well, and most of the ladies we spend time with in the back country weigh well below 150 pounds, or so they claim.

[Jer]

umm, don't wanna rush you guys & all, but ... when's ship date for the protos?
Not that it'll change my choice of lines.
(seriously. for once.)

[Treepinner]

A backpack simply doesn’t hold the air.

As another poster pointed out, these things work more because of volume than because of flotation -- can of mixed nuts analogy. So the underwater testing is interesting if we want to use your device as a lift bag for scuba but not much value for avalanches.

It's SOP for many backcountry skiers to carry a slightly larger volume pack (40 liter) than they need for a day tour and to loosely stuff their down parka to increase volume (the weight difference between a 20 liter pack is negligible). The question remains whether your product actually offers any more protection to justify cost and hassle.

Until you test this thing with the anchors attached, you may not want to market to skiers and snowboarders unless you like feeding bloodthirsty lawyers. Sounds great for the snowmobile market though...after last weekend, they need all the help they can get.

[summit]

Treepinner: Accident statistics suggest strongly that airbags work.

IKAR rates it a "Class IIA device with good to very good evidence"

[jtwassoc]

Here is our problem with the “mixed nuts” analogy. You cannot assume that shear volume is a major force in carrying the victim to the surface. It is a factor in raising a large body to the surface of the snow, but it has nowhere near the force of an inflated gas lift bag. The difference is that the backpack does not hold the air it contains. It bends and folds to the forces of the avalanche, instead of remaining taut like the lift bag. What we learned from the Lake Tahoe test was that it took 290 pounds of dead weights to drag the little 3 cubic foot lift bag down 30 feet. We hung an entire lift bench worth of weights on the lift bag to get it to finally start to submerge. A backpack would have been on the bottom in 1000 feet of water within seconds. An avalanche has a lot of similarities to a river of water, and lift bags, relatively small lift bags, fight for the surface whether it be an avalanche or a river.

As far as connecting our test dummies to skis and snowboards goes, we’re thinking that the skis will release a lot of the time, and the snowboards have a lot less surface area than the skis, so even if the board remains attached the lift bag will do its job.

And David Witherspoon, we think we are going to ship something next week. But we want to start with people who we feel will be skiing or boarding or sledding late into the season. There are some hard core back country types here on TGR that we want to ship to first. They include people who live, say, in or near Colorado and regularly post Trip Reports from Colorado peaks that they can drive to. The device can’t be taken with you on a plane, security won’t allow it even if it is legal and you have the paperwork to prove it. So first we want to get the device into the hands of local hardcores who drive to their mountains. The second group we want to ship devices to immediately is heliski operations that can let customers use the devices while they heliski. So we are going to ship some to PointsNorth Heliskiing out of Cordova, Alaska, and try as well to get a few devices to operations in Valdez, AK. We are also getting a few devices out to the sledding community.

Here is video of a test we conducted several years ago in Nevada. A 20 cubic foot lift bag attached to a snowmobile. Watch at the end of the video how the lift bag lurches toward the side of the avalanche and begins to curl up the hill in a circular eddy, exactly like a fishing bobber in a stream finds the eddies, turns upstream and seeks the side of the moving flow.

Video:
http://www.avalanche-research.com/si...03.flv&logID=1

[Treepinner]

Treepinner: Accident statistics suggest strongly that airbags work.

Sorta. The unit under discussion here is less than half the volume of the ABS packs on the market now. With a high percentage of backcountry users on non-releasable skis and splitboards, the question remains: how much is enough? This technology encourages people to push the envelope but the testing so far doesn't prove much and they don't seem interested in doing the research that counts.

[jtwassoc]

Here's another test avalanche:

[jtwassoc]

continuing...........







Here the slide completely engulfs all the test dummies and lift bags......

[jtwassoc]

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[jtwassoc]

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Here you can see the lift bags emerging from the avalanche (left)......





Here's the mountain after the slide..........

[jtwassoc]

Here's the device attached to the bottom of a backpack.







Our guy had no problem skiing and skinning with the device attached........

[jtwassoc]

Here is what we find a lot of the time. The "test dummy", in this case a 200 oak log, is partially buried and the lift bag is completely exposed after the avalanche. This was after a class 2 avalanche. We used two real crash test dummies and three logs to try and save money as the real crash test dummies are expensive and the logs are, well, free. There is a problem with using logs though; a crash test dummy has supple and bendable arms and legs, and a hand, foot or some other part of an extremity is usually what we find above the surface of the snow after the slide. The heavy logs don't have the moving appendages, and don't properly mimic a person in a slide. Next year we'll use only crash test dummies.......





These pics are a little blurry as they were taken from a hovering chopper, but soon we will get the pics from our recovery crew that skied into the debris field to deal with the equipment.

[Phatstix]

This technology encourages people to push the envelope but the testing so far doesn't prove much and they don't seem interested in doing the research that counts.

I disagree. This technology isn't meant to encourage people. If that's the way you see it I suggest taking up water skiing.

Personally, I'm looking forward to testing this product this Spring. 'Tis the season for BC in Colorado!

[jtwassoc]

Good news is; prototype devices shipping out Monday, March 5.

Bad news is; not all 50 devices going out. We've got enough of the harnesses retooled to ship out a few dozen devices, but some of you will have to wait until this summer. Sure, you can't use an avalanche flotation device in the summer, but his will allow people to examine the thing and try it on or attach it to their backpack and see how it fits and feels. This will allow us to get some valuable feedback before we manufacture the next batch of devices for this coming season.

If you do not immedately receive your device, please be patient and eventually it will get there.....

[jtwassoc]

Prototypes shipping out now, thanks for your patience.

Here's a 30 pic sequence of a big control slide we produced. Took it right down to the rock. No test dummies in this slide, just a control avy to make the valley below safe to enter.........

[jtwassoc]

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[jtwassoc]

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[jtwassoc]

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[jtwassoc]

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[jtwassoc]

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Love this one....





Not a lot of snow left..........