Denver Post "Surviving an Avalanche article today

**~mikey b** · 10-26-2006, 12:25 PM

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4550539

denver & the west
Surviving an avalanche
Think you know what to do? One local expert says you might be wrong
By Steve Lipsher ,
Denver Post Staff Writer
DenverPost.com
Article Last Updated:10/26/2006 05:45:28 AM MDT

Copper Mountain - Tumbling like a rag doll in a surprise avalanche, Vail ski patroller Billy Mattison recalled "fighting like hell" to stay on the surface, following age-old advice to "swim" in the moving snow.

But the fact that he wound up buried only to his waist after the 500-foot plunge, badly bruised and greatly humbled, likely was the result of good fortune rather than his physical effort, according to the latest wisdom among avalanche experts.

"There's very little control of it," Mattison said. "In hindsight, when I look at it, I attribute it to nothing but pure luck."

As more skill and science are launched on avalanche study, holes are beginning to emerge in the conventional wisdom, such as the old saw about swimming in an avalanche.

More than 150 avalanche experts who gathered here for the annual Colorado Snow and Avalanche Workshop were told Wednesday that the long-standing practice may actually hurt more than help.

"I don't think swimming has helped people," said Dale Atkins, one of the pre-eminent authorities on avalanche survival. "Typically, swimming takes your hands away from your face, and you can't use them to create an air space in front of your face."

Nearly 75 percent of avalanche victims actually die from suffocation rather than from trauma, Atkins said, and the records are full of cases in which people died despite being buried for as little as 10 minutes.

"That's a long time to hold your breath," Atkins said.

In a state that historically incurs the largest number of avalanche fatalities in the country, the annual gathering attracted members of ski patrols, highway safety crews, rescue teams and other backcountry professionals to check out the latest rescue equipment and discuss techniques such as finding multiple buried victims.

In an average year, six people are killed and dozens more buried in the estimated 20,000 avalanches that crash down Colorado's mountains.

Staying on top of the snowpack is important, but in many cases, victims are helpless to affect their position, said Atkins, a former forecaster with the Colorado Avalanche Information Center who is now working for avalanche-gear company Recco.

"Brazil-nut effect"

Larger objects - chunks of snow, snowmobiles, even people - tend to rise to the surface of a moving stream of avalanche debris, Atkins said, terming it the "Brazil-nut effect" after the phenomenon that larger nuts tend to wind up on top of a bowl of mixed nuts when it is shaken.

"Snowmobiles are twice more likely to stay on top than their riders. Cars almost never are buried if allowed to go with the flow," he said.

But luck seems to be the biggest factor in determining whether a skier is buried or manages to ride on top of the snowslide.

Mattison recalled struggling to keep his feet below him - a lesson he learned from whitewater kayaking - but found himself repeatedly flipped by big boulders and constantly pulled beneath the surface when he "took a ride" in 2000.

"The first thing I realized was how fast I got going," he said. "They talk about 'rag-dolling,' and that's pretty much what I felt like. I thought I was going to die."

As the head of Vail's avalanche-control program, he had been intentionally cutting the snow on an expert ski run called Mudslide when he triggered the avalanche.

"I wasn't even thinking avalanche. The snowpack was so shallow that I was wondering if I'd even be able to ski it, or if I would have to hike down" through the exposed rocks, said Mattison, who attended the conference but was not an official speaker.

Although he said he was embarrassed by the incident, his tale was a vivid lesson that even a relatively small amount of snow - like what is on the ground in the mountains today - is enough to form a dangerous avalanche, and a reminder that if it could happen to an expert like him, it could happen to anyone.

Staff writer Steve Lipsher can be reached at 970-513-9495 or slipsher@denverpost.com.

**summit** · 10-26-2006, 01:09 PM

Here's the Summit Daily article...
http://www.summitdaily.com/article/2...NEWS/110250049

CSAW was great except for the voodoo witchdoctor frauds who were pitching their $11,000 divining rods to find avalanche victims.

**~mikey b** · 10-26-2006, 01:26 PM

really????

**summit** · 10-26-2006, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by telemike

really????

?

2345678

**cj001f** · 10-26-2006, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Summit

?

2345678

Got anymore on the divining rod? Worth a laugh, if nothing else

**~mikey b** · 10-26-2006, 02:08 PM

that's what I was "really-ing" about. Divining rod?

**leroy jenkins** · 10-26-2006, 02:10 PM

I call bullshit on the pure luck thing. I have no illusions about myself, but most of the time when you see the pros get caught in a slide in videos, they manage to stay A. on/very near the surface B. close to the top of the slide elevation wise.

**summit** · 10-26-2006, 02:46 PM

DielectroKinetic Laboratories's LifeGuard human detector...

Claim: Detects the presence of human life up to 500m and uses no battery power to do so but "encapsulated human DNA" instead... the swinging wand antenna will pull as you sweep it across a plane where it will detect the "1-3hz field emmitted by a human"...

Cost: $11,000

Priceless:
I went out during a break and googled their produc:
Me: "Any comment on the Department of Energy Sandia National Labs study that showed the device to be "no better than random chance" and the science to be bunk?
DKL CFO: "That study was fixed! It wasn't peer reviewed."
Me: "Are there any peer reviewed studies that show your product works?"
DKL CFO: "No"
Me: "How many devices have you sold over the last 8 years."
DKL CFO: "500 in Japan and China"
Me: "Why does your omnidirectional antenna not pick up the operator"
DKL CFO: "I will be happy to debate you one on one after the demonstration."

Exerpts from their presentation: "We don't really know how it works. The equations from the inventor (deceased) don't pan out, but empirically it works."

We did talk with them afterwards...

They threw out dozens of pseudoscientific words, that neither I, nor the former DOD communications expert, nor an electrical engeer who was attending had ever heard of.

Their presenter kept insisting I couldn't possibly comprehend the product without reading the dead inventors book on bioblahblah

http://www.sandia.gov/media/hudet.htm

The idea behind it is not completely bunk, but their claims, implementation, etc are so blatantly crackpot that they must be willing frauds and scam artists... or just very very dumb and occaisonally good at talking moron venture capitalists out of their money and less technically savvy rescue organizations into wasing tens of thousands of dollars.

**eirikainersharp** · 10-27-2006, 03:45 PM

WOW!!!!!!! That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard... WOW!!!!!!!!

good questiong about the omnidirectional antenna.

**Hacksaw** · 10-27-2006, 08:30 PM

Its really too bad that Summit hijacked this thread. I'd rather hear about folks reaction to Dale Atkins's ideas about not swimming in avalanches. Then the "doctor Voodoo," machine. "Voodoo Doctor,"isn't worth wasting time talking about him. Since 99.9% of us can't afford an $11,000 unit to search for a live victimes heartbeat any way.

Summit, Let's get this back on track. Now.

Halsted

**cj001f** · 10-27-2006, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hacksaw

I'd rather hear about folks reaction to Dale Atkins's ideas about not swimming in avalanches.

You first.

**summit** · 10-27-2006, 08:53 PM

Hacksaw is right.

-----

I think Dale has some excellent points. In my mind it seemed like he is caling out the choice the victim has between an act that has a minute chance of reducing burial vs an act that has a greater chance of improving survival times when buried.

As far as random luck, I believe Atkin's comment was coming from the acocunts of people caught in the avalanches whereas less than half were able to make swimming motions irregardless of the effectivness of such motions.

A question posed is if one has an avalung in and therefor is drawing air from the snowpack irregardless of hand position... should one then swim?

**Arno** · 10-28-2006, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Summit

A question posed is if one has an avalung in and therefor is drawing air from the snowpack irregardless of hand position... should one then swim?

No direct experience of this, but I'd think you'd use at least one hand making sure the mouthpiece stays in

**eirikainersharp** · 10-28-2006, 02:28 PM

[QUOTE=Summit;963254]

As far as random luck, I believe Atkin's comment was coming from the acocunts of people caught in the avalanches whereas less than half were able to make swimming motions irregardless of the effectivness of such motions.

I thin that this is going to have a large dependence on the nature of the snow pack you are in.

I don't know whether there even is a general rule as to how to react... i think in the end its going to depend on the situation.

**Hacksaw** · 10-28-2006, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by cj001f

You first.

No. I think it better to see what comments the regular (recreational BC skier/boarders) are thinking. It would help me out a lot from an Avalanche Educator standpoint.

Halsted

**Hugh Jardon** · 10-28-2006, 08:13 PM

Anything up to a class 2 slide is likely "swimmable" and "fightable" but sometimes not survivable. Class 3 and above the person caught is likely at the mercy of the slide.

To maintain calm in an avalanche and not fight or swim is highly unlikely given the way humans respond to surprises, danger, stress, etc, especially when the realization of dying is involved.

An air space is important. So is trying to fight your way out of the slide. Both have a slim chance of success. I'll go with luck. And I just knocked on wood.