One tip to meeting Maggots for ski touring

[TheSnowLife]

yeah, bringing rookies or unprepared people along is tough.

[skifishbum]

I have no expectations or concerns about trail breaking. I'm happy to do it, or share the work. Trail breaking isn't a safety issue.

I politely disagree. Good routefinding/trailbreaking and comunication is a safety issue. A few people I tour with jam tunes on their ipods, while in certain low danger situations is okay w/ me. Other times I think this is a bad idea.

[Trackhead]

I politely disagree. Good routefinding/trailbreaking and comunication is a safety issue. A few people I tour with jam tunes on their ipods, while in certain low danger situations is okay w/ me. Other times I think this is a bad idea.

True.

I was speaking only to the workload, or aerobic experience. I don't like skiing with people who crank iPods either. They can't hear the snow whoomping or hear their partners. And routefinding is obviously a concern as well.

[Trackhead]

yeah, bringing rookies or unprepared people along is tough.

No, it's fun, I enjoy it. But I expect a little common sense prior to. Such as reading a beacon manual and atleast doing a couple simple searches prior to showing up.

If you haven't done that, fine. Let me know. We'll show up 45 minutes early and do some. Or spend some time at the beacon training site.

[telepariah]

Excellent topic, Trackhead.

I am fully in agreement that all I ask from potential partners is honesty. I don't want somebody showing up for either a tour or a ski mountaineering excursion unprepared and having misled me as to their experience. Yet I am more than happy to take people out and show them the ropes. But there is a huge difference for me as a leader between showing somebody the basics in Butler Gulch and finding out on the east face of Squaretop that they have no idea how to use their safety equipment.

I had quite a day once years ago on the Grand with a guy who advertised himself as ready to climb and ski the Grand but when he got to the first steep snow he froze and wouldn't go up or down. Killed three hours trying to get him to trust me to lower him down from a bergschrund. And it certainly wasn't safe for him given his lack of experience to even be anywhere near the Grand. I became really careful about how I selected partners after that.

There are lots of ways to get experience with beacons. You just have to find partners and commit to doing it. You can practice in a park, you can practice at a ski resort, you can even practice in your house. Hacksaw's dad used to stop by his place and hide a beacon somewhere. A note and a beacon left on the kitchen table told Halsted his dad had been there and that a search was on. And when you buy a probe, assemble and disassemble it in your back yard about 50 times until it becomes an automatic movement.

Then be honest about your experience anyway and it won't be hard to find partners. It is people who think they have to pretend they are more experienced than they are who cause safety concerns.

[Rontele]

Excellent topic, Trackhead.

I am fully in agreement that all I ask from potential partners is honesty. I don't want somebody showing up for either a tour or a ski mountaineering excursion unprepared and having misled me as to their experience. Yet I am more than happy to take people out and show them the ropes. But there is a huge difference for me as a leader between showing somebody the basics in Butler Gulch and finding out on the east face of Squaretop that they have no idea how to use their safety equipment.

I had quite a day once years ago on the Grand with a guy who advertised himself as ready to climb and ski the Grand but when he got to the first steep snow he froze and wouldn't go up or down. Killed three hours trying to get him to trust me to lower him down from a bergschrund. And it certainly wasn't safe for him given his lack of experience to even be anywhere near the Grand. I became really careful about how I selected partners after that.

There are lots of ways to get experience with beacons. You just have to find partners and commit to doing it. You can practice in a park, you can practice at a ski resort, you can even practice in your house. Hacksaw's dad used to stop by his place and hide a beacon somewhere. A note and a beacon left on the kitchen table told Halsted his dad had been there and that a search was on. And when you buy a probe, assemble and disassemble it in your back yard about 50 times until it becomes an automatic movement.

Then be honest about your experience anyway and it won't be hard to find partners. It is people who think they have to pretend they are more experienced than they are who cause safety concerns.

And since you showed me many of the backcountry ropes, this response really hits close to home. I still remember vividly the first day we skied together and how we instantly had a repoir because I was honest about my lack of experience (at that time). It made for a great learning experience.

[iceman]

And since you showed me many of the backcountry ropes, this response really hits close to home. I still remember vividly the first day we skied together and how we instantly had a repoir because I was honest about my lack of experience (at that time). It made for a great learning experience.

repoir? yikes.

as far as the rest of it, I don't think there's much of an issue as long as people are honest. If you honestly describe your experience then it's up to the expeerienced person to make the call, as it should be.

[Rontele]

repoir? yikes.

as far as the rest of it, I don't think there's much of an issue as long as people are honest. If you honestly describe your experience then it's up to the expeerienced person to make the call, as it should be.

I meant rapport. I was distracted listening to whether a horizontal agreement to price fix is per se illegal under our country's anti-trust law.

But I think this thread is important. Because not all of us are TH nor telepariah. At some point, everyone on this board was a newb and to some extent relied upon someone else to teach them a thing or two and show them the ropes. I think TH raises a good point that despite being a beginner (when I was, i had still taken an avy I course and could use my beacon), you should come to tour with basic knowledge or a willingness to be honest.

[InspectorGadget]

repoir? yikes.

as far as the rest of it, I don't think there's much of an issue as long as people are honest. If you honestly describe your experience then it's up to the expeerienced person to make the call, as it should be.

expeerienced? Yikes.


I'm a tour virgin, but I've got all the stuff and I'd like to learn how to use it.

[lemon boy]

TH- That sucks.

Just a couple quick thoughts on probes (here to keep me from starting a frivolous thread on the subject):

If you buy a probe in a shovel handle:
step 1.
Remove probe from shovel
step 2.
Throw probe in trash
step 3.
buy a real probe

If you go to a shop to buy a probe:
step 1.
Remove each prospective probe from its little baggie and set baggies aside
step 2.
assemble each probe, see which is the fastest and most robust. Any probe you have to read instructions on to assemble, return to baggie and restock - K.I.S.S.
step 3.
disassemble each probe, see which is the fastest. Any probe you have to read instructions on to disassemble, return to baggie and restock - K.I.S.S.
step 4.
of all the probes you like, make sure they all fit in the avy tools section of your backpack, are robust and long enough for your intended uses
step 5.
return all probes you're not going to buy to their respective baggies and restock
step 6.
purchase new probe, give baggie to retailer to scan sku and throw baggie away
step 7.
practice getting your probe into action quickly and efficiently along with your shovel.

[iceman]

expeerienced? Yikes.

Hey it was a typo, not a whole new word!

[Pinner]

By day... rapport.

By night... repoir!

[LeeLau]

Good points well made by trackhead and telepariah. Will add one more thing:

- Being on time for early morning meetings - that's at least one basic courtesy.

[MrZach]

LB -

Nice post, thanks. Simple enough, but I wouldn't have thought of doing probe assembly speed tests in the store.

[Twoplanker]

Hah, this is funny because I owe Trackhead and crew a full day of trailbreaking. Or he could just send me a bill.

Jesus I owe him many thousand feet of trail-breaking. However, I doubt he cares.

[Mtn Man]

Minimum requirements:
Avy 1 class
practice beacon finding for at least 30-60 minutes, this should be done every year
know how to assemble shovel and beacon in less than 10 seconds
don't lead unless you know route finding techniques

Jackson Hole has a beacon training area at the bottom of Rendevous Bowl, use it! Treerat and I spent about an hour there last time.

B)

[LeeLau]

Minimum requirements:
Avy 1 class
practice beacon finding for at least 30-60 minutes, this should be done every year
know how to assemble shovel and beacon in less than 10 seconds
don't lead unless you know route finding techniques

Jackson Hole has a beacon training area at the bottom of Rendevous Bowl, use it! Treerat and I spent about an hour there last time.

B)

that's over the top imo. What's next - must be able to color coordinate outfits?

[Buster Highmen]

that's over the top imo. What's next - must be able to color coordinate outfits?

An Alpental BC card.

[Mtn Man]

that's over the top imo. What's next - must be able to color coordinate outfits?

I guess I'm a little more worried about my life in my old age, but that's just me. I know a lot of people here more than cover these, it's open to interpretation. The class can be replaced by pure experience under a mentor. As for color coordination, I'd be in trouble....

What's your criteria?

B)

[shirk]

- Being on time for early morning meetings - that's at least one basic courtesy.

And call ahead of time to inform partners if your plans have changed.

[soylent green]

The assumption that a person is not a safe partner without Avvy 1 certification is ridiculous. There are many people out there that have great knowledge and skills that don't have that particular rubberstamp.

[ski_faster]

step 6.
purchase new probe, give baggie to retailer to scan sku and throw baggie away

Very important one here. You don't need that baggie and if you keep it in the baggie you are going to waste valuable time when it counts.

[Mtn Man]

The assumption that a person is not a safe partner without Avvy 1 certification is ridiculous. There are many people out there that have great knowledge and skills that don't have that particular rubberstamp.

Hence the caveat that pure experience under a mentor is also good. Sorry, trying to get work done today too. Don't have time to write a dissertation(sp)

B)

[Jer]

yeah, bringing rookies or unprepared people along is tough.

Not so tough. Probably a third of my tours in the last few years have been introducing inexperienced people to the backcountry.
I give myself a lot of room for error when touring with someone I don't know - regardless of their proficiency level.

[leroy jenkins]

The assumption that a person is not a safe partner without Avvy 1 certification is ridiculous. There are many people out there that have great knowledge and skills that don't have that particular rubberstamp.

Definitly. I'm pretty much a backcountry JONG, and when I took my level I course, most of it seemed like review. I think they start from a pretty basic level, assuming close to no prior knowledge of anything avy related, so if you just watch ski movies, and listen to your more knowledgable feinds talk about things, you can learn most of that.

And a BC Jongs perspective on the rest of this thread:

Its really hard to tell what knowledge people have without talking to them directly about it. It could be taken as a bit offensive to ask to see someone do beacon drills before you head out with em, but I don't think it would be a bad idea.

Earlier this year, I was talking with a couple guys I know about BC skiing, they were planning on heading up to Bridger. I explained that I wasn't all that expeirianced or knowledgable, just so they would know. They told me about how they did tons of BC skiing, and I'd be fine with them. We get out there, and I quickly realized I was by far the most knowledgeable person in the group. I watched them make a number of dangerous choices, and they never once talked about stability, much less dug a pit.

In regards to trailbreaking, I'm sure people that tour all the time like TH and IskiBC are in far better shape than me, and would much rather break trail all day than wait on my exhausted ass after I try to break trail.