Alta loc in Chamonix needs gear advice

[potatohead]

Yo! I've traded Utah pow for the glacial snow and crevasses here in Chamonix. Since the new year has begun the snow has fallen everyday and the conditions are shaping up well.
I consider myself a fairly adept back country skier with all the gear I need to ski around the Wasatch. These new surroundings have me in search of more gear though.
So here's the questions:
What are the different tiers of equipment necessities one might need for hiking around the alps? I can't afford everything, so what would be the basic setup besides a harness, axe, crampons, rope, and screw? What kind of rope/harness works best for this crap? What would be the deluxe package with everthing you'd ever need for a high mountain expedition? Any other advice would be sweet.
I try and ask the local guys I've met, but I find them hard to understand, especially when they start rattling of gear I've probably never heard of anyway. Thanks.

[kailas]

These questions sound so gaperiffic. Be careful, I've watched people die in that town.

[Roo]

Some swear by the BD Alpine Bod harness. I find it kills my nuts.

25m of 9mm rando rope is usually sufficient for most glacier travel. A Black Diamond XTP descender isn't too heavy and is a nice unit. I like Petzl Tiblocs as well for getting out of (or into) a jam but, again, others will have a contrary opinion.

Petzl Tikka Plus is a nice little light to have in a pocket on your pack in case Tom takes you for a spot of nocturnal crevasse hopping.

[Arno]

add to your list
2 or 3 prussik loops
screw-gate carabiners (3 should do you)
a pulley is helpful for crevasse rescue but not totally necessary

[philippeR]

Yo!
I try and ask the local guys I've met, but I find them hard to understand, especially when they start rattling of gear I've probably never heard of anyway. Thanks.

What they were talking about :

[greg]

I'd advice you to take a basic course in glacier traveling or whatever it might be called. it 'll take you one or two days and you will learn what it needs to get out of every situation (or how to prevent to net get into one that you don't get out of). then you have to decide on your own what you'll need for a specific trip you are planning.

you can do the vallee blanch on big foots and short sleves. (yes i've seen that.) and at other times you need full equipment.

I can't really agree with what roo said but it'll be a bit too complicated to explain. the only advice i can give you is to take that course. it's only the beginning of the season - it'll be worth it.

[Roo]

Good advice, Greg.

[potatohead]

I guess I should point out that I don't plan on blindly flying into these situations. A proper education on all aspects of alpine touring here in the Alps is certainly in my near future. I was just hoping for a heads up on the gear end. Thanks.

[mtcham]

I am also in the process of learning basic glacier skiing safety (reading) and found this thread to be helpful. I would love to ski off the Aigui without a guide but won't even think about it until I'm fully prepared. I'll be in Cham for a month this winter and hope to acquire some basics, at least for the future.


http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...t=glacier+gear

[Hicks]

What are the different tiers of equipment necessities one might need for hiking around the alps? I can't afford everything, so what would be the basic setup besides a harness, axe, crampons, rope, and screw? What kind of rope/harness works best for this crap? What would be the deluxe package with everthing you'd ever need for a high mountain expedition? Any other advice would be sweet.

Depends a lot what you intend to do. Mere glacial hiking or serious ice climbing in combined terrain to access skiable exposures? Big difference there.
Basic package:

Axe:
for glacier travel a conventional long shafted which you can use as anchor for crevasse rescue, for climbs 2 short ones which you need to try which shape of shaft handles best for you.

Rope:
for glacial travel 9.5 mm single rope, min 40 m length. For climbing 10 mm single rope, min 50 m. Imprregnated/water repellent.

Harness:
The one which fits best to your anatomy. Try some on in a shop AND let them hang you in it for some minutes - you will see/feel the difference. Get a chest harness the same time otherwise heavier backpacks will make you flip over when hanging to the rope after a fall.

Crampons:
for gt aluminum/titanium crampons are o.k., for serious climbing in combined terrain steel ones are more durable but heavier. Definitely recommend clip fixture.

Screws:
3-4 aluminum or (pricier) titanium screws.

Plus:
for gt two 5mm ropes, 0.5. and 2 m long, plus one spare. One HMS twistlock, one regular snapper. For climbing one long and two short belt slings, 4-5 snappers, HMS. 8 is optional.

[flowtron]

KC, dat you?

-"Hannerhan"

[PNWbrit]

Assuming this isn't a lame troll.....

Since you've asked here it sounds like you don't have a local mentor/partner (who considering your lack of knowledge should really hae his shit lined up )that you'll be climbing with.

Follow Greg's advice and take a course.

There is probably no place in the world better set up to learn this stuff than Chamonix.

Don't get dead.

[greg]

I guess I should point out that I don't plan on blindly flying into these situations. A proper education on all aspects of alpine touring here in the Alps is certainly in my near future. I was just hoping for a heads up on the gear end. Thanks.

alright the basic basic setup for traveling roped on a glacier.

harness (spelling?)

(50 is absolute minimum, rather) 60 m rope of at least a 1/2rope if you travel with 2-3 persons. otherwise 5-6m times the number of persons plus 10-12m on each end.

1-2 icescrew at least 16cm. do not try to get away with a cheap one. count in about 45.-€

2 long prusiks 3,5-4m each. 5-6mm or about half the diameter of the rope you are using.

one "don't know the word - french word is sangle" 120cm

2 carabiners with a lock

an iceaxe

that's for very basic rescue.

with advanced rescue technics, which you might need for self rescue in certain situations or if your fallen partner is not capable of assisting you during his rescue, you need furthermore:

2 carabiners of exactly the same form

1 carabiner with a lock

those "advanced" technics also have the advantage, that you can go with a shorter rope if you are a group of two or 3 persons: 40-45m.

that's the basic list. some of that equipment can be substituted by specialized tools as for example the magic plate for the two matching carabiners or all sorts of pullys or clamps.

on www.petzl.de you'll find most of the basic technics. although all set up with petzl's specialized equipment that is 1. expensive, 2. can only applied in certain situations as for example rescue as opposed to assisting your partner since some of them will destroy your rope.

but the systems are nevertheless the same, just the tools are different.

sounds all terribly complecated in the end it's quite simple. you just need someone to show it to you and you should try it at least once yourself.

[bbirtle]

I agree with Greg about gear and that training is far more important than the gear.

sangle = "sling" in english.

You can't skimp on any of the above list btw... it's all "bare minimum" for rescue situations.

For rope I usually want to see two people at minimum in the group each carrying a 30-45m thin rope.

I think you can get a lot by reading the books before your course or real world training too... how about "Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills" or whatever you can obtain locally.

[potatohead]

flowtron-roger that. Bugged out of UT for the winter, proving to be a good choice. Glad you guys are getting puked on.

everyone else- Thanks for the input. A lot of what has been mentioned is very helpful. As everyone seems to be the foremost expert on their own opinion, it's interesting to see the varying ideas. I'll put all the info I gather here to good use in conjunction with info learned from numerous other sources.
As far as the people I'll be rolling around the hills with, I trust them with my life. It's just hard to grasp all the info they spout at me with techy talk and strong accents. And oh yeah..my french still sucks. It's getting better though and just like the opening questions in this thread, you have to start somewhere.

BTW Any good book titles are a valuable resource too. thanks bbirtle

[shirk]

My question is who goes to Cham for a season without taking care of this stuff before leaving home?

A couple hours basic reading in techtalk would have let you know the basics and tipped you off to a few books to pick up prior to leaving.

As PNWBrit said "Don't get dead" there be alot in Cham that didn't get that one right.

[greg]

As everyone seems to be the foremost expert on their own opinion, it's interesting to see the varying ideas. I'll put all the info I gather here to good use in conjunction with info learned from numerous other sources.

to be honest, i don't think that the input is contradicting. it's just that your question "equipment for highmountian routes" is not specific enough.

the list i gave you is, as i said the basic if you need to go roped. if you have to go roped or not is your decision. of course it doesn't make any sense at all to carry a 60 m rope in your backpack if you are not skiing roped anyways (ascending or descending). as roo pointed out, a thirty meter rope might be sufficient to pull somebody out of a crevasse he has slid into while he was unroped. but if you go roped or not is depending on your decision according to route and conditions, if you are skiing down or going up. to do vallee blanche you might need nothing or all of it. but if you carry it you are on the secure side of the line. sometimes you need it, sometimes you couldn't care less.

just try to get an insight on how rescue works and you will find out that nobody can give an answer to the question you asked. and don't be impressed by people standing in line at aguille du midi. a lot of them have exciting things dangling from their harnesses but have no clue if their setup makes any sense at all. i can imagine it to be quite confusing if you are there for the first time. 99.5 percent of those guys make it through anyways..

[JoeStrummer]

I am no Messner but spend a month a year in the Alps and have picked up some personal prejudices. . .

I frown on aluminum crampons and short ropes. Take the weight penalty and not have to worry about being caught unprepared if you want to climb something or do a real rescue. I also carry a metal bladed shovel, most people I see skiing the Alps carry Lexan tinkertoys or nothing.

Mammut makes a nice light harness you can buy at Snells.

Screws and pulleys and prussiks and tiblocs and all that are personal preference. The Euros go way lighter than the classic Freedom of the Hills rigs you see staggering around the Cascades and I have to admit I have adapted to their techniques.

Biggest thing in the Alps is reading the terrain and being comfortable with the scale and magnitude of things. It's way burlier than anything you might find in the Wasatch and takes some getting used to - I still make lots of "no-go" decisions when other people are swarming into the hills in lycra, fanny packs, and skate skis.

Ski the Vallee Blanche for your first taste - Lachenal died there when he skied into a crevasse but overall it is a fairly low-commitment intro and you can scope lots of harder shit for future trips.